Apple IIe Problem

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Hi

I'm hoping someone can give me a few pointers as to where to go next.

I have a UK PAL Apple IIe with a boot problem. On switch on now there are vertical lines as well as a few coloured pixels. I have replaced the RAM (tested good on another (US) Apple IIe, the CPU (again tested), and the 2 x ROMS (originals were faulty according to my programmer, so replaced with 2764 EPROMS). I have also tested all the socketed TTL, and replaced the 2 x 74LS244 and 1 x 74LS245. The CPU seems to be working, reset goes for Hi to Lo when Ctrl Reset are pressed, and there is activity on all data lines - but this is the best I have got it.

Most of the Apple chips are different between the US and UK boards, so I can't easily swap them out for testing, and schematics I've found on the net seem to only be available for the US board - and I'm not really clever enough to work out exactly what signals I would be looking for anyway!

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gsmcten's picture
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Re: Apple IIe Problem

GrahamN,

I just wanted to say "Welcome to Applefritter!".

Did you say that your Video Generator ROM was ok?

Steven Smile

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes - I tested each ROM in my programmer against binary images I found online. The video ROM and Keyboard ROM tested OK, the 2 Main ROMS failed, so I programmed a couple of 2764 EPROMs as replacements. I've also tested both the original ROMs and the replacements in the board with no difference to the display, so the original ROMs MAY be OK, just failing in the programmer for some reason.

speedyG's picture
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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Hello GrahamN,
welcome,

first - there is still some mixing of the ROMs...
by the chips up now its a //e enhanced UK.....
see table at:
http://www.appleii-box.de/H000_Chipsets.htm

the 341-0273A should be used for UK at the Character ROM ( that´s where at the moment a 341-0150 is placed )
and not in the socket for the Video Rom ( where its at the moment )
and at the Video Rom socket in the //e should be a 341-0160 or a 341-0161 !

If the computer still locks up you may try changing the HAL chip
341-0170 at location: D11. That chip is same in all IIe models ( US and european versions )
if that chip stays to hot it may age faster and run out of specs with its timing and
that sometimes locks up the entire boot process by crash....

sincerely
speedyG

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

The character ROM is in the correct position according to the board legend. And the board legend also states 341-0150 for the keyboard ROM. I have attached a couple of close-up pictures. (Actually I tried to, but couldn't find out how!) The HAL is a 342-0170, the US board is a 341-0170. They are very different layouts - the US board I have is dated 1982, while the UK PAL board is dated 1984

Edit - attached pictures to first post.

speedyG's picture
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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Did you check the link for the tables and view them carefully ??? Does not seem so....
The 341-0150 is the Character ROM for the unenhanced //e !
And then check the list of the correct Video ROM-No.s !?!
last not least: Why do you ask - if you don´t want to listen and solve ???

Do you really expect a character ROM ( 341-0273A) to work correct as Video ROM ???

speedyG

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Why so aggressive?

Are you saying that the legends printed on the PCB are wrong?

The ROMs are in the same place as when I bought the computer. I was told that it was working fine before being stored, unfortunatley it wasn't stored very well! I haven't moved them and the markings on the ROMs are identical to the printed legends on the PCB. It therefore seems logical to me that they are in the correct position. If you are saying that Apple printed the PCBs incorrectly, then I can change them. Did you look at the close-up photos?

(And I do appreciate your help - but I don't like to blindly accept something that looks wrong without being sure that I fully understand)

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

In case of doubt, I am in the UK. According to the ROM list on asimov.net, 341-0150 is a keyboard ROM for UK/USA while 341-0161 is a Video ROM for German/USA. There is also listed a 341-0160 for UK/USA - perhaps that is the correct enhanced ROM? Should I burn a new EPROM and replace it?

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

I've just double-checked the board to make sure I'm not being completely stupid, and the keyboard ROM is a 24pin device, while the video ROM is a 28pin device. So while they may be incorrect ROMs for the enhanced IIe, they are definately in the correct sockets.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

and what do you believe is in the Video ROM socket ?

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

In the socket marked 'Video ROM' on the board is a 341-0273A while your list shows 342-0273 as a UK Character Generator ROM (which I assume is the same thing?) This is an original Apple chip, though the first part of the number is different. I did test this against a binary image of the 342-0273 when I tested all the other ROMs and it registered as OK.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

GrahamN wrote:

In the socket marked 'Video ROM' on the board is a 341-0273A while your list shows 342-0273 as a UK Character Generator ROM

(which I assume is the same thing?)

WRONG !

The Keyboard ( Character ) ROM contains the bitmaps for display of the characters at the Screen
The Video ROM contains the routines how to display data at the Screen !

Turn back to posting #3 and posting #5.....

- or just remain in your pitfall
and keep happy with the screen you get at the moment.....

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Okay

You are an arrogant and rude person. You obviously know far more than Apple designers - including how to fit 28pin ROMs into 24 pin sockets.

I'm out of here.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

GrahamN wrote:

Okay

You are an arrogant and rude person. You obviously know far more than Apple designers - including how to fit 28pin ROMs into 24 pin sockets.

I'm out of here.

First of all:
The 341-0160 Video ROM as well as the Video ROM 341-0161 both fit well in the 28 pin sockets !
Both are 2764 Eproms !!!

Second: I never told you to use the 341-273-A in the keyboard socket !

Reply #3 has been polite and also reply #5 was correct .....
even question #9 was still polite....

Instead think twice about your own lack of knowledge !
If you don´t read carefull and think about what you read but instead continue
argueing and defending own mistakes ...

In fact the //e boards changed several times design and layout slightly by the
fact that Eproms with larger space came to the market. Your board is a version ( 820 - 0188 -A ) !
( see labeling at the very right side of your picture ) !

In later boards there was a 28 pin socket used at the place of the Keyboard ROM.
and the 341-0273 and the 341-0275 have been used in the later boards !

So if you want to view somebody really stu... and ru.. take a look at the mirror !
farewell....

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Whoa everyone, let's slow down, stop, and have beer. When undrunk the first step is to make sure the original factory specified chips are in place. Just good practice and something I like to do.

I did not read the whole thread, because I know next to nothing about this specific board variant.

As far as terminology goes, Video ROM = Character Generator ROM. The terms are interchangeable. This is the chip that holds the dot-matrix array for each character. An enhanced vs un-enhanced vs foreign language chip would simply mean you get a differently shaped character output to display. This really hasn't anything to do with hi-res graphics or anything. It's text only. And problems here show up as garbled characters. Read 8-24 of Understanding the Apple IIe by Jim Sather. An enhanced Video ROM has MouseText. A standard un-enhanced one does not. A foreign language chip has an altogether different matrix.

The Keyboard Rom contains information that tells the keyboard chip how to decode the keyboard switch matrix and what codes to output on the bus. It basically says the "A" key belongs to so and so switch and to produce the correct ASCII code. A lookup table! Read 7-9 of Understanding the Apple IIe by Jim Sather.

Neither of the chips has a program or code that is loaded and executed, unlike the main firmware.

Through learning and understanding the OP will learn and perhaps get this up and running.

As classic computers age and as people desire to sell non-working units as working units - us enthusiasts are going be left holding the bag (of test equipment and troubleshooting tools) more and more often. A fact of life going forwards.

Depending on one's skill swapping chips one-by-one may be the only option.

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speedyG's picture
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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Hi Keatah,
well in this case it´s probably usefull to read the entire thread....
sincerely
speedyG

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Keatah

Thanks for your comments. I really don't understand SpeedyGs attitude. I have the original chips in the original sockets, verified by printing on the board. I was really unhappy about burning new different ROMs without some sort of explanation why that was necessary. Instead of explaining why he thought it necessary, he simply attacked me for not doing whatever he said.

However - things have moved on this morning. I retested the 341-0150 keyboard ROM in my programmer, and it showed an error (actually it crashed the programmer), so I burned another one (341-0150) using a 2716 EPROM. I put that in the board and it started working. Instead of Apple //e, though, I have Apple //k. I don't know if that is correct for the board / ROM combination I have, or if there is another problem on the board - either way I'm a lot better off than before.

I now need to refurbish the keyboard as half of the keys don't work!

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Despite not knowing all the specifics of this board, electronics is electronics. And a billion principles apply equally across every board ever made.

I don't have the patience to troubleshoot and conduct lessons across message boards anymore. However maybe I can find some time to bring this into my shop. Charge for parts only, as usual.

I will be back in town at the end of this month and warming up everything once again. I have some 6551 projects I want to work on.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Well, then, maybe it doesn't need to come into my shop! Progress has been made.

I do not know if Apple //k or Apple //e should show up. I'm sure there are users out there that know and maybe they'll chime in. But, when you get the keyboard working, all switches working and manually continuity checked, with confidence, do a keyboard test. See what keys are mapping right.

And run some text programs that use the entire character set. Both input and output, keyboard to screen, and all that.

Maybe there is some documentation on ftp asimov relating to this exact mainboard. I'm too lazy to look.

As far as attitudes go. We all have different ways of interpreting and expressing ideas and whatnot. A lot can get lost in simple text-only messages. Much like what is going on with this specific mainboard!

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

GrahamN,

According to your pictures you have a 1984 MB.

Someone correct me if I'm being stupid, but the list Speedy provided of 1984 U.S. and Euro (UK)IIe
motherboard ROM chips looks to be exactly the same.

If I'm wrong, I sit corrected,
but if I'm right, if you tell me
what ROMs you need and I can see if
I have spares.

Steven Smile

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Hello Steven,

the picture from Grahams //e ( second link first posting ) displays 65C02 as CPU => enhanced //e....
CD ROM: 342-0304 => enhanced //e
EF ROM: 342-0303 => enhanced //e
Video ROM 341-0273A => enhahanced //e Char ROM UK ( late version ) ???
correct video ROM: 341-0160
Character ROM: 341-0150 => Char set US unenhanced IIe
Inconsistent Chipset with mistakes.....
see link to table in third posting...

sincerely
speedyG

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

I forgot to turn off subscriptions, so received a few notifications which I feel I should answer. This WILL be my final post on this board as I came here looking for help, not to be patronised by an arrogant, rude, person who simply gave me ROM numbers and told me I was stupid and doing everything wrong, but with no explanation as to why the wrong ROMs were fitted and why Apple had printed the wrong ROM numbers on the board.

In fact I was able to get help elsewhere and the board is now running fine - with the 'wrong' ROMs still fitted.

It may be there are good reasons to install different ROMs in place of those Apple fitted originally, but no such reasons have been given and I was not going to simply change the ROMs on a non-working board without good reason. I repaired computers for a living for about 20 years (finishing in the late 1990s, so pretty rusty admittedly now), and know full well that changing anything on a non-working board should be done on a like for like basis unless there is a good (and known) reason for making a change. The danger of introducing yet another fault is too high in most cases, and it is good practice to get a basic system working before making changes.

Having said that, I did ask for reasons why I should fit different ROMs, but instead of any coherent rationale, I was subjected to abusive language and told to just do it as the originally fitted ROMs were wrong.

As I said, I am now withdrawing from this forum, as I find it an unpleasant experience - in future if I have problems I will go elsewhere or work them out myself.

For interest, my board is fitted with the ROMs starred on the following list:

(341-0161 shows as a German/US ROM hence why I was reluctant to fit it as I have a UK machine)
(The ROM in my machine marked as 341-0273A is actually identical to a 342-0273A)

And that is my last word on the matter.

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/misc/Apple%20II%20Common%20ROM%20Numbers.txt

028- What are the numbers and functions of major Apple II ROMs?

341-0001-00* Integer BASIC E0 1978
341-0002-00* Integer BASIC E8 1978
341-0003-00* Integer BASIC F0 1978
341-0004-00* Integer BASIC F8 (Old Monitor ROM) 1978
341-0009 13 Sector drive controller P5 ROM
341-0010 13 Sector drive controller P6 ROM
344-0010-B IIe MMU (not a ROM chip)
341-0011-D0* Applesoft BASIC D0
341-0012-D8* Applesoft BASIC D8
341-0013-E0* Applesoft BASIC E0
341-0014-E8* Applesoft BASIC E8
341-0015-F0* Applesoft BASIC F0
341-0016-00* Programmer's Aid #1 1978
341-0020-F8* Applesoft BASIC F8 (Autostart Monitor ROM)
344-0022-A IIe IOU (not a ROM chip)
341-0027 16 Sector drive controller P5 ROM
341-0028 16 Sector drive controller P6 ROM
342-0033-A //c Monitor ROM $00 1985
341-0036 ][plus character ROM
341-0065-A Super Serial Card 1983
342-0077-A IIGS ROM-00
342-0077-B IIGS ROM-01 1987
341-0080-B ProFile 5MB RW-Z8 1981
341-0112-A Apple SCSI (non-HS) revision A firmware
341-0112-B Apple SCSI (non-HS) revision B firmware
341-0124-A IIGS Keyboard i8048
342-0132 IIe (and //c) Keyboard ROM (USA) 1982
342-0132-A IIe (and //c) Keyboard ROM (USA) 1982
342-0132-B IIe (and //c) Keyboard ROM (USA) rev DVORAK, pad
342-0132-C IIe (and //c) Keyboard ROM (USA)
342-0132-D //c Keyboard ROM USA 1984
342-0133-A IIe Video (Char Gen) ROM 1982
342-0134-A IIe EF ROM 1982
342-0135-A IIe CD ROM 1982
342-0135-B " (identical) 1982

*** 341-0150-A IIe Keyboard ROM UK/USA 1982

341-0151-A IIe Keyboard ROM deutsch/USA 1982
341-0160-A IIe Video ROM UK/USA 1982
341-0161-A IIe Video ROM Deutsch/USA 1982
341-0170-A IIe HAL (not a ROM chip)
341-0265-A //c USA Char Gen 1983
342-0272-A //c Monitor ROM $FF (original) 1983

*** 342-0273-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen UK

342-0274-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen French
342-0275-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen Deutsch 1983
342-0276-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen Italian

*** 342-0303 //e (enhanced) EF ROM
*** 342-0304 //e (enhanced) CD ROM

342-0306-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen Western French
342-0307-A //c, //e (enhanced) Char Gen Western Spanish
342-0349-A //e (platinum) CF ROM
342-0372-A //e (enhanced) KB ROM deutsch/USA 1985
341-0437-A Apple SCSI (non-HS) revision C firmware
342-0445-A //c Monitor ROM $03 (memory expandable)
341-0625-A //c plus Monitor ROM $05 1988
341-0728 IIGS ROM 3 FC-FD (prototype)
341-0729 IIGS ROM 3 FE-FF (prototype)
341-0737 IIGS ROM 3 FC-FD 1989
341-0748 IIGS ROM 3 FE-FF 1989
341-0749 IIGS ROM 3 FE-FF (prototype)

* Note: Use of "-00", "-DO", etc. suffixes (or no suffix)
seems to vary radomly. For instance, an E8 ROM might be
numbered 341-0014 or 341-0014-00 and have "E8" stamped
elsewhere on the ROM.

In most cases, this also seems to apply to "-A", "-B"
suffixes (or having no suffix).

speedyG's picture
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Re: Apple IIe Problem

Seems Graham still does not recognoze difference between unenhanced IIe and enhanced //e....
and display of Apple //k might still be result from mixing up different versions....
that has been explained here in a bunch of previous threads related to debugging of the IIe....

speedyG

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

I guess ROM chip numbers don't really mean much unless
you know what it belongs to. How many incarnations are
there of the Apple IIe are there? I wouldn't have a clue.
I guess this is where documenting would come in handy
and avoid the guesswork and assuming thinking.

What are all the numbers of the PCB and Revisions are there?
Anyone?

Here is a listing of ROMs for just 1 of the Enhanced //e's PCB and REV.

Logic Board ID: PCB 820-0188-A (International) REV - 607-0288-A

ROM Number Logic Board Description
Location

341-0150-A F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/UK (2716)(2Kx8)
341-0151-A F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/GERMAN (2716)(2Kx8)
341-0160-A E9 IIe Video ROM w/UK (2764)(8Kx8)
341-0161-A E9 IIe Video ROM w/GERMAN (2764)(8Kx8)

342-0132-A F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/DVORAK (2716)(2Kx8)
342-0132-B F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM (2716)(2Kx8)
342-0132-C F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM (2716)(2Kx8)
342-0133-A E9 IIe Video ROM (2732)(4Kx8)
342-0134-A E5 IIe EF ROM (2764)(8Kx8)
342-0135-A E3 IIe CD ROM (2764)(8Kx8)
342-0135-B E3 IIe CD ROM (2764)(8Kx8)
342-0170-A D11 IIe TMG DRAM/Video Timing Generator (16R8)
342-0265-A E9 IIe Video ROM (2732)(4Kx8)
342-0273-A F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/UK (2716)(2Kx8)
342-0275 F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/GERMAN (2716)(2Kx8)
342-0303-A E5 IIe EF ROM (2764)(8Kx8)
342-0304-A E3 IIe CD ROM (2764)(8Kx8)
342-0372-A F12 IIe and IIc Keyboard ROM w/GERMAN (2716)(2Kx8)

What about others?
Food for thought.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

It has been my experience that the chip installed on the motherboard does not necessarily match the writing near the socket in which the chip goes into.

The only swapping I did with chip versions was between the keyboard rom of a platinum iie and a non platinum one.

They both seem to do the same thing and produce no problems.

Also, there was a time where I purchased an Apple iie motherboard from Ebay and it had all of the enhanced chips installed except for the CPU.

It worked fine but I got that error message about not being able to run the latest version of ProDOS.

That means that ProDOS checks the CPU to see if it's a 65C02.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

The difference between nonenhanced and enhanced IIe at the Video ROM and Keyboard ROM is
that at the non enhanced version there is only standard ASCII signs
while at the enhanced version Apple added the so called "Mouse Signs"

amd additional at the Video ROM some mistakes in the HGR-routines have been "mended"
at the enhanced version.

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Re: Apple IIe Problem

just to turning this topic a bit sideways - heres a question

I am trying to get a II+ motherboard back to life. Nearly there
I turn on, get the beep and my display goes from bars to small bars and lines, like characters

The apple ][ logo is at the top of the screen appears but not as letters , just lines etc
if I get a boot error more character/lines appear on the next line

My charcter rom is 341-0036
I think it may be dead

I do have a character rom from a IIe - 341-0150

Can I try the 341-0150 in the II+ instead of the 341-0036 - or will that blow the chip

cheers folks