Apple IIgs programming

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I've posted this question on the AtariAge, but figured I can get some help here too Smile

I'm not new to 6502, but have no experience with Apple outside of high school very long time ago. I would like to get into Apple II, and figured why not get the IIgs for something different. I got a MicroDrive with CF card, 4mb memory card, and 3.5" drive, so a decent set up.

My issue is - I don't really want to learn/use GS/OS, I want something simple like ProDOS, so I can concentrate on coding, not worry about relocatable code, etc., but still use native mode, all the memory, graphics, and sound, and toolbox functions if workable. Basically looking for simplicity of an 8-bit machine but with added power.

Unless somebody can tell me otherwise, ProDOS 16 does not seem to be the answer, as it's merely a stopgap, and not a good one at that.
That leaves ProDOS 8. How easy is it to access all the gs-specific hardware using it though? Is it a viable choice for game development? Or am I just better off getting a IIe or even a IIc?

Thanks for any insight, IIgs is quite a mix of things Smile

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

I believe, with either approach - you'll wind up using some sort of low-level language.

I can't think of a way to do this without assembly on ProDOS 8. Even then, I only have personal experience with a macro library I built for Macrosoft's The Assembler to access GS memory directly with 65C816 opcodes. I know of a few games that used the graphics and sound capabilities of the GS using ProDOS 8; Electronic Arts Marble Madness is an example.

I guess I'm asking for clarification of what you would dislike on the GS/OS programming tools (such as the ORCA tools) and more of what you would like under ProDOS 8 programming tools?

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

Yes, assembler is precisely what I have in mind. The idea of playing with 65816 is exciting, I've tried for years to find a SuperCPU for Commodore 64, but finally gave up, and an external accelerator is nowhere near as appealing to me as having the CPU built in. My ultimate plans are to complete a game that I started on a C64 but gave up because reusing the same raster, sound, etc. routines for the 100th time just lost its' shine Smile

My problem is that I really have zero experience with Apple IIs, so I'm learning everything from scratch. Conceptually what I was initially looking for is a simple environment where I have memory-mapped access to all resources, with OS routines callable in some fashion. I didn't want to bother with relocatable code, worrying about clean return, etc. - just take over the machine, with as little overhead as possible.

I purchased Opus II images and have installed Orca under 6.0.3, but so far I'm just learning the system, reading, etc. The Orca environment is also very nice, and easy to get used to. Already my initial assumptions about GS/OS were wrong, as it doesn't seem as heavy-handed as something like GEM on Atari ST or KS/WB on Amiga. ProDOS is just something I'm more used to.

I guess I probably asked the question a little too prematurely, but a IIgs can be a little overwhelming at first...

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

If you have nothing against a small investment, I recommend buying the Nibble collection on DVD from Mike Harvey. http://www.nibblemagazine.com/ - a lot of source code demonstrating the various IIGS programming techniques. I can think of "Life GS", which worked well providing a 16 bit graphics/sound game in the scope of a magazine article, and the source code didn't look too overwhelming - compared to say assembly source code for a ProDOS application calling the MLI.

Note, all ProDOS 8 really offered from an operating standpoint was the MLI for making various disk calls (basically). At least with ProDOS 16 and GS/OS - there were calls for graphics and sound. If you went the ProDOS 8 route, you'd have to do all the graphics and sound coding from scratch or find something you can borrow from. I'm sure it's doable, but I'm having trouble thinking of any programming tools that don't rely on GS/OS calls to the various toolboxes.

In addition, there's a lot of books and magazines that have been scanned in under the "Programming" sections under "GS" on Asimov that are worth reading.

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

Thanks, that is quite a collection, got the order placed. This is in fact one of the best things that I've noticed - the amount of documentation and source code. I have downloaded pretty much all the major PDF scans of manuals, references, etc. I have enough reading for the next two years now!

Taking the ProDOS 8 route definitely makes it harder, with the benefit of getting maximum performance from the hardware, but I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with GS/OS and Orca now. I've settled on this being the best route to learning the IIgs, at least initially.

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

Failed to mention the source repositories on Asimov ...

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/gs/programming/source/

Also, I think I've seen source for Wolfenstein GS or maybe Lode Runner GS - if you're looking for information on graphics/sound. I can't remember where I saw those or if I'm confusing it with something else.

I was also reading last night that a Toolbox wasn't included for early O/S releases. So if you're looking for music, you'll need to look at later Toolbox references.

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

sonnik wrote:

I believe, with either approach - you'll wind up using some sort of low-level language.

I can't think of a way to do this without assembly on ProDOS 8. Even then, I only have personal experience with a macro library I built for Macrosoft's The Assembler to access GS memory directly with 65C816 opcodes. I know of a few games that used the graphics and sound capabilities of the GS using ProDOS 8; Electronic Arts Marble Madness is an example.

I guess I'm asking for clarification of what you would dislike on the GS/OS programming tools (such as the ORCA tools) and more of what you would like under ProDOS 8 programming tools?

I bought MacroSoft's The Assembler and MacroSoft a couple years ago from Mike Harvey..

Did you publish your Macro Library??? I would be interested in seeing it..

MarkO

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

MarkO, sorry for delay, I haven't been around in a while. It was only a few macros to move between the different banks of memory. I should have some time this weekend to go digging around for it and posting it.

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

sonnik wrote:

MarkO, sorry for delay, I haven't been around in a while. It was only a few macros to move between the different banks of memory. I should have some time this weekend to go digging around for it and posting it.

Thanks for looking for them...

MarkO

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Re: Apple IIgs programming

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