Disk Help

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Joined: Oct 9 2013
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I am familiar with a lot of Apple II stuff but I personally have never seen or used this disk before. I'm sure many of you guys know its purpose!
It boots like the DOS 3.3 Basics disk in a few seconds time and then asks me to "Insert Basic Disk and press return key"

I actually have three of them but have no clue. (plus, I don't know what the disk is for Smile

????
Zan

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Joined: Dec 19 2003
Posts: 832
Re: Disk Help

It looks like it contains the Integer and Applesoft versions of the BASIC computer programming language. Applesoft is probably on the back side of the disk and you have to flip it. I think you had to load the languages into RAM in the ][ and the ][+ machines(?). The fact that the UC (University of California) Regents have some copyright involved makes me wonder if there isn't some UCSD Pascal code used too.

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Joined: Oct 9 2013
Posts: 367
Re: Disk Help

I saw that (the UC Copyright)

So what "Basic Disk" do I insert? I had zero luck finding anything online about this particular disk and nothing on this site. My searches were not extensive (did not spend hours looking) but I did make the attempt on here, a couple other sites and google in general.

At the "Insert Basic Disk" prompt a Ctrl-Reset brings me to the Integer Basic Prompt >

The back of all three disks are blank which leads me to believe there is not supposed to be anything on the back.

Apparently I am not smart enough to ascertain the true purpose of this disk so any and all help is appreciated!

whscullin's picture
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Joined: May 27 2013
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Re: Disk Help

It's possible they just mean any BASIC disk. There are older floppies with Integer BASIC HELLO programs that crash with "LANGUAGE NOT AVAILABLE" on boot on Applesoft machines, and the reverse is true for Applesoft HELLO programs on Integer BASIC machines.

This is probably similar to booting a DOS 3.3 Master, which loads the language card up with the opposite BASIC of what is in ROM, and rebooting, but perhaps a little faster.

The other possibility is that this is for booting 13 sector disks, which is what the image I found on asimov does, but that version says so explicitly, with a "INSERT YOUR 13 SECTOR DISK AND PRESS RETURN" prompt.

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Will

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Joined: Oct 9 2013
Posts: 367
Re: Disk Help

SInce it drops me into Int. Basic you are probably right (booted it on a II+ w/Applesoft ROMS) I don't currently have a machine handy with Integer ROMs to see if it loads Applesoft. It boots like a DOS 3.3 Basics disk for booting 13 sector but the message is different.

I'll mess around with it some more.
Zan

speedyG's picture
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Joined: Nov 16 2011
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Re: Disk Help

Hello Zan8675,
did you ever try to catalog the disk and examine the Hello Program ???
instead of guessing around - that´s the normal way to get answers....
speedyG

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Re: Disk Help

speedyG wrote:

Hello Zan8675,
did you ever try to catalog the disk and examine the Hello Program ???
instead of guessing around - that´s the normal way to get answers....
speedyG

Actually Speedy, the "normal" way to get answers when you don't know something and cannot figure it out on your own is to ASK FOR HELP. I did that, and others have attempted to help. But thanks for your keen insight into how to get answers.

Yes, I did try to catalog the disk,(all three actually) and the only result is an I/O error.
I tried several times to search details on the disks (besides their listing for sale over the course of time on ebay and elsewhere)
Next I went to a website that is filled with members who are more knowledgeable about things Apple II related than I am and asked for their help.

So far the only response that did not offer a suggestion as to the purpose of these disks or information about them was yours.
Zan

speedyG's picture
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Re: Disk Help

Hello Zan,
nice reply...
just besides
- i would not have written that posting, if this facts would have been noted in the initial posting...

so if you get an IO-error just for the protocol...:
Did you try to make an image with ADT and then generate a disk back from that image ?
Did the disk from that image operate same way ?
If yes, then it might get interesting to offer a link to the image so that an experienced user might examine the disk ?
just an idea ....
speedyG

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Re: Disk Help

speedyG wrote:

Hello Zan,
nice reply...
just besides
- i would not have written that posting, if this facts would have been noted in the initial posting...

Regardless of my initial post you could have simply suggested an attempt to catalog or asked if I had.....without the snide remark at the end.

Knowing the extent of some of the collections of those on this board and the vast knowledge so many of you have I had hoped someone here had the same disks or were familiar with their purpose.

Quote:

so if you get an IO-error just for the protocol...:
Did you try to make an image with ADT and then generate a disk back from that image ?
Did the disk from that image operate same way ?
If yes, then it might get interesting to offer a link to the image so that an experienced user might examine the disk ?
just an idea ....
speedyG

While I attempted to catalog the disk after my initial posting, hence the reason it was not in the initial post, the only other thing I did was make a copy of the disk on a machine I had set up. It copies without issue using copya. I do not currently have any machine set up with ADT right now as I am working on fixing/cleaning a couple machines (only room to set a couple up at a time in my home)

But that sounds like a good idea and I will make an effort to do so as soon as possible. Thanks!
Zan

Dog Cow's picture
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Posts: 468
Re: Disk Help

Zan8675,

When the Pascal system came out in 1979, it came with 16 sector PROMs for the Disk II controller which then made your Disk II system incompatible with about 99% of all your Apple II disks, because the current DOS was version 3.2 and that was 13 sectors.

So if you weren't using Pascal, then you would have to insert this BASICS disk first. It's a 16-sector Pascal disk. It will load the 13-sector disk controller ROM firmware into the RAM of your Apple, thus allowing you to boot your 13-sector DOS disks which would then contain your Integer or Applesoft (or whatever else) programs.

The BASICS disk became obsolete as soon as DOS 3.3 came out and everyone switched over to 16-sectors. Which I'd imagine was pretty quickly since it was a superior system offering additional storage space on the same type of disk.

But this BASICS disk is still worth holding on to, because you will find them very rarely, but you will still come across 13-sector disks. I think I have only three such disks out of many hundreds in my collection.

I have one too, slightly different label, though.

PS: You can't catalog this disk because it uses the Pascal file system. You need to boot the Pascal system and then catalog it from within the Pascal filer.

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Re: Disk Help

Dog Cow wrote:

Zan8675,

When the Pascal system came out in 1979, it came with 16 sector PROMs for the Disk II controller which then made your Disk II system incompatible with about 99% of all your Apple II disks, because the current DOS was version 3.2 and that was 13 sectors.

So if you weren't using Pascal, then you would have to insert this BASICS disk first. It's a 16-sector Pascal disk. It will load the 13-sector disk controller ROM firmware into the RAM of your Apple, thus allowing you to boot your 13-sector DOS disks which would then contain your Integer or Applesoft (or whatever else) programs.

The BASICS disk became obsolete as soon as DOS 3.3 came out and everyone switched over to 16-sectors. Which I'd imagine was pretty quickly since it was a superior system offering additional storage space on the same type of disk.

But this BASICS disk is still worth holding on to, because you will find them very rarely, but you will still come across 13-sector disks. I think I have only three such disks out of many hundreds in my collection.

I have one too, slightly different label, though.

PS: You can't catalog this disk because it uses the Pascal file system. You need to boot the Pascal system and then catalog it from within the Pascal filer.

So it is the predecessor to the DOS 3.3 Basics disk.

Took out my 13 sector Gammon Gambler disk and it booted after using the Integer And Applesoft II disk, same as the DOS 3.3 Basics disk.

Thank you. Perhaps I should keep these with my DOS 3.2.1 system disks as a set. Thank you again!
Zan

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Re: Disk Help

Zan8675 wrote:

So it is the predecessor to the DOS 3.3 Basics disk.

That's my conclusion as well. Yours most likely came with the Pascal Language System. Mine with the copyright date of 1980 probably came with the DOS 3.3 System Master.

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Re: Disk Help

Dog Cow wrote:
Zan8675 wrote:

So it is the predecessor to the DOS 3.3 Basics disk.

That's my conclusion as well. Yours most likely came with the Pascal Language System. Mine with the copyright date of 1980 probably came with the DOS 3.3 System Master.

Genius that I am even commented how it boots like the DOS 3.3 Basics disk (I have several and used them to boot some of the 13 sector disks I have, like the DOS 3.2.1 disks!) yet never thought to try and simply put a 13 sector disk in. (duh)

The "Integer and Applesoft" is what threw me. Thank you again for your help.
I received the three copies of the disk together with other unrelated items. I'd love to know how they were originally bundled/available. I actually still have one version of PASCAL (sold the other recently) and copies of both versions I had. Will check the disk out just to see what I can see.

Again, thank you for the help and also thank you for Mac GUI. It has been invaluable to me in reviving the old compact macs in my possession. (didn't hurt the Apple II's either!) Went right there recently when I needed a working copy of MODE32 and knew it would be there. Great resource.
Zan