Heating issue

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skipper1947's picture
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Does anybody have advice concerning heating from cards in the Apple IIe? Given that most of these cards are around 35 years old, does that make them more fragile?

I recently added an AE accelerator card and even new, it's manual advised adding a cooling fan such as the System Saver to cool down the case. I added a system saver, but of course it is also very old so I don't know if it is putting out as much air as it did new.

Even with the fan, the case seemed to get pretty warm inside after a while (all slots are full).

Now I am running it with the cover off and with one of those USB powered mini fans blowing across the open case. Does this seem the best approach? These cards are pretty hard to replace and I want to do what is best. Smile

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speedyG's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Hello Skip

and welcome to the board....

first of all : most cards for that ancient Apple computers are rather robust - so in
general there is no fear needed about some kind of fragility.....
the most common issues with that aged cards are caused by oxydation at the pins of the IC´s....
and the most comon cure ist gently lifting that chips up gently and only partialy ( no complete extraction )
without bending the pins and then reseating them ( maybe repeating this procedure twice or three times )
will remove/scratch off oxydated coating and solve the issues....

but in fact the heat is a common issue at the old Apple II series....
there are 2 reasons for that:
most power supplies used in that old computers have been poorly dimensioned by Apple with nearly no reserve...
so they are often exceeding limits if the computer is completely filled up with cards.....
in former days some guys upgraded their computers by the common "buggy supply" a PC XT supply with adapted powerplug
for the Apple II mainboard and added to the system as external powersupply....
also in former days there have been several third party manufacturers that offered stronger power supplies for
the Apple II series of computers....
another handsom chance to overcome this issue might be by following up a solution like displayed at
this page in my site:
http://www.appleii-box.de/H037_AppleIIupgradingPowersupllies.htm

besides it would be usefull to list up here in this thread the entire population of cards within your
computer to enable us to make a rough calculation of the real use at the moment....
the accelerator card of course is one part of the issue because it speeds up the computer and by that it of course also raises the temperature.... but there are also other known common issues to temperature like cards with large additional amout of RAM chips like for example the RAMworks II or III.....
and it´s also of interest how many drives are connected, because they also should be added to the calculation....

i´d like to remind you that also in former days some manufacturers added to old PC´s a bracket at the rear with an additional fan to the rear outlet.....
with minor changes such a solution could also be used at the IIe.....
sincerely speedyG

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the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Thanks for the helpful reply speedyG, it is good to know the old cards are not just waiting to disintegrate into little dust piles. Smile

I looked at your web page, your power supply looks impressive. However building something like that is quite beyond my expertise.

Here are the cards I have in my Apple IIe:
Slot 1: Uthernet II
Slot 2: Super Serial Card
Slot 3: AIIE 80COL/64K MEMORY EXPANSION
Slot 4 Applied Engineering Transwarp accelerator.
SLot 5: Applied Engineering TimeMaster Clock card.
SLot 6: Smart Port Card: 3.5" disk controller with 1 drive.
Slot 7: CFFA Compact Flash card c.2005

It looks like the biggie heat source is probably the accelerator (but it sure does make a difference in performance.) With the cover off and the little fan blowing across the top, I can feel little, if any heat from it. However, I worry about the fact there is no cover protecting the interior.

Ideally, I would like to find a little fan to push air into the box from one end, while the System Saver fan sucks it out the other end. Most idea's I have come up with so far, involve liberal use of duct tape, which is not too appealing to me.

Skip

speedyG's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Hello Skip,

reading the listing of the cards inserted in the system the accelerator card and the powersupply itself will be the 2 sources of heat in the closed box. So it would be a good idea mounting additional fan above the power supply and having the kensington mounted at the side of slot 7 if possible. Is your IIe a US model or a European model ?
If it´s a US model the 80 col card would be close to the powersupply and if its a European model the 80 col card should be in the front slot leaving slot 3 at the rear side empty.... in that case it would be recommended to use a opening at the rear of slot 3 that usualy is occupied with DB25 plug instead for usage with a additional fan. That would perform optimum removal of heated air towards outside of the rear at that point and the Kensington could remain at the side of the powersupply. and for airflow input a additional bracket at the rear of slot 7 should be opened.

in the meantime i found the old thread , where i mentioned a possible solution:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-repair-help-needed
see the posting #13 !
in general at the most IIe models there was a break in the rearpanel above the powersupply
for a hoizontal mounting of a DB19 plug.
That opening might be expanded and such a mentioned fan might be mounted there.
The challenge would be to find a fan with average size and expanding the opening to match with
such a fan. And besides in most modern laptops are realy excellent flat 90 degree fans mounted
for cooling. So it might be worth examining old damaged laptop that is in non repairable status,
but still having a working fan system....
speedyG

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the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

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Posts: 359
Re: Heating issue

With the cards you have you should be just fine with a system saver fan. It was more than enough for me when I had hugely more power hungry cards and an internal had drive. If you’re running it with the top off then you shouldn’t need anything. Cutting up your case for more fans would be going way over the top.

skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Thanks for the replies guys.

The 80 column card in mine is in that small slot towards the front of the case and closest to the power supply. The "actual" slot 3 is empty. I was going to insert a photo for good measure, but I can't figure out how to insert a photo here.

I am reluctant to start cutting holes etc., in the case so I will continue with the open top/little fan arrangement for now I guess.

I just lay the side of my hand on the power supply and it actually feels cool! So I guess I will take that as a good sign. Smile

Skip

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Re: Heating issue
skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Thanks for the suggestion Warr.

I think I have a pretty good solution (over-all). I purchased the little fan in the link below. It is only about 6 inches tall and as very quiet. I then reversed the cover of the apple and propped it up so the rear of the cabinet is open a couple inches. Reversing it gives much better access to the fan. The cover at the rear is propped up with a 1 inch thick wood stick (lying cross ways across the opening). The fan sits in the rear blowing air directly into the opening.

I run the fan at about 1/2 speed and it keeps the interior at room temperature. The propped up cover protects the insides from, well; me.. when I lean over to adjust the monitor or something (the flat screen monitor sits behind the case).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KPUFDGG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

I wish I knew how to include a picture, it would have made this message a lot shorter..
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speedyG's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Hello Skip,

just for the future, if you want to add pictures in your postings...
the correct tags are :

"(img)http://sitename/path/picturename.jpg(/img)"
but you must use instead of the normal brackets the square brackets !
there is a opening tag followed by the location where the picture is availiable in the internet
and the closing tag with the slash upfront.

at the other hand if you read the help availiable at the posting editor - there is also
a possibility to upload a picture here to the server... the option is availiable by the
picture icon at the top command line of the editor.

sincerely speedyG

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In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Thanks SpeedyG, the picture icon at the top of the editor merely does this when I click on it:

[inline:attached_image_#]

I am not sure what to do with that. Most forums let you browse to a picture file on your hard drive and upload it that way. Was there another icon I am overlooking?

Thanks,
Skip

Dr. Webster's picture
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Re: Heating issue

You'll want to expand the "File Attachments" section just above where you see the Preview / Save buttons at the bottom. Select your file and attach it, then use the string as Speedy suggested.

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skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

I am sorry to be slow Dr. Webster. Embarrassed All I see above the [Save] and [Preview] buttons is a hyperlink called "Input format". Is this the section you say I should expand? I have looked through it and am still scratching my head.

Sorry, I am not trying to be annoying. The picture was not all that interesting anyway. Smile
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speedyG's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Hello Skip,

it´s not that important if you don´t want to upload the picture direct to this site....

Today there are a lot of so called picture hosters out there like flicker or imgur.....
the only important thing is that the access must be in a public folder (i.e. it shall
not be deposited in a folder resricted only to members or friends... ) when uploaded
in general there will be a link displayed for that picture in the adressing line of the browser.....

copy that link to notepad for later access or remembering...
then add that link using the tags i explained.....

some additional advice:
for best display here in the posting, it should fullfill the following dimensions
( size specifications ) :
size width: 1000 pixel to 1500 pixel
size height: 1000 pixel to 1500 pixel
resolution: 75 to 150 pixel per centimeter
format: .jpg ( compressed to faktor 8 )( compression faktor at photoshop at time of saving )
with that compression the size of the picture would result average to 300 kB to 500 kB.

For detailed diagnostic a picture of higher resolution might be usefull:
1,6 to 3,0 megapixel....
in diagnostic cases often the picture will be zoomed later by the viewer in a program to
detect details .... therefor in such cases it´s upmost important to pay attention to
excellent focus and lighting ( if possible without flash reflections )....

excuse but the amount of details ... but since last posting on that topic a lot of
new members joined the platform, so i also try to explain to that audience too....
there are several former threads with good and bad examples here...

the explenation to the tags are listed at:
http://www.applefritter.com/filter/tips

and the upload picture to this site is availiable at:
top left side border: create content >> image >> forth option box >> search image to upload
and it´s recommended to fill also related info boxes about topic and additions text and teaser...
and of course: also in this case please note the link for later use with the explained tags in your posting....

sincerely speedyG

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In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Hey, I did it! Thanks speedyG.

I think the key concept I was missing, is that adding the photo is a separate process from responding to a message. First I upload the photo, then I right-click on the finished picture and copy the link location. Then when I respond to the message, I add [img] [/img] to the body of the text and paste the link between the tags. One thing that was screwing me up was the graphic file name of "IMG_0680(small).jpg" Turns out the "(" character was breaking the link. Once I renamed it, it worked OK. I apologize the the several copies I uploaded (I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I am persistent).

Anyway, here is my hillbilly cooling system. I have a system saver fan running, but was still not happy with how warm the interior got once I added the accelerator card (perhaps the 25+ year old system saver is tired).

Note how I have the front of the cover facing the rear, which gives much better access to the air from the fan (the rear sits quite securely where the front used to be).

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MarkO's picture
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Re: Heating issue

skipper1947 wrote:

<< SNIP >>

First I upload the photo, then I right-click on the finished picture and copy the link location. Then when I respond to the message, I add [img] [/img] to the body of the text and paste the link between the tags. One thing that was screwing me up was the graphic file name of "IMG_0680(small).jpg" Turns out the "(" character was breaking the link. Once I renamed it, it worked OK. I apologize the the several copies I uploaded (I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I am persistent).

<< SNIP>>

( As a Point of Information )

If you can't use '(' and ')' in Hyper-Links, replace them with '%28' and '%29'. e.g. "IMG_0680%28small%29.jpg"

MarkO

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Re: Heating issue

You solution, to me anyway, looks like it will help keep the lid cool, but not the electronics under it. I think the systems saver would do a better job overall, and be a tidier solution.

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6502 forever!

skipper1947's picture
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Re: Heating issue

Thanks for the tips guys. Bill, I did use a system saver, it seemed to be working as designed, but the interior was still warmer than I liked, possibly because of the transwarp card (and all other slots being full). Actually, I am still using it, though it probably is not helping too much with the cover propped up like that.

Granted, it looks a little goofy, but the little fan makes a BIG difference. The interior is room temperature and the power supply is cool to the touch. I am quite happy with it, and nobody sees it besides me, outside of that picture above Smile

PS: The cover of the Apple acts like an "air scoop", directing the air from the fan down inside the case. I can feel air wafting out each side.

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