Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

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speedyG's picture
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Posts: 2376

Hello to all AF-Members,
specially to those that have a Newton or a Mimeo or a Apple1,

i started to develop 3 kinds of expansioncards for the Mimeo, Newton and Apple1:
1 card will be designed as Prototypcard for own developments
1 card will be designed as ROMcard for 2708/2716 Eproms/ROMs ro enable the User
to add things like Basic or Programmers Aid or other software resident in EPROM/ROM
on the card es resident expansion ( which reduces loading procedures )
1 card will be designed ro be used as RAMcard with either MK4096 or MK4116 and enabeling
the user to expand memory by 4 kB, 8 kB, 16 kB or 32 kB without the need to modify the
mainboard and the used RAM will be selectable per each row similar to the Apple II with
2 plugs to be set per row.

Additionaly I want to design a slotexpansioncard to be plug to the side of the mainboard
expanding the Mainboard by 2 more slots and with own powersupply input and regulation
to enable user the possible usage of up to 3 expansioncards and 2 of them ( those on the
extended expansioncard ) having possible independent powersupply of their own and not
causing additional load to the powersupply on the mainboard.

I would like to figure out, when the carddesign is finished how many people will be interested
in such PCB´s and in which PCB´s. This will become important when negotiating with a company
that would execute the task of making these boards... and knowing which amount of cards to be
made from each kind of card..... this targets to the problem, that the more cards will be made,
the better the price would turn out per card because i only want to make one single run of each
card matching the amount of users that want to order some cards. The price will be dependent to the
amount of users and the amount of cards and i will then execute orders only to those which have
afterwards taken part in a kind of "per-order-process" - ( that will be without any charge )
and charging only the cost from PCB company per card divided by Users that ordered the cards and
adding only shipment cost to the user.

Within the next days i will also supply a link to the basic layoutdrawings ( and required population of
each card ) here in this thread.

Interested users plaese issue your needs by pm to me here at AF.
For besic calculation of shipment cost - i am located in Germany and dependent to the amount of
cards i intend to mail the orders to the users by registrated lettermail with the German Post as
international lettermail ( if more than 3 cards will be taken by a user it will be needed to mail
the order as registrated parcel ). Probably users living close together could try to communicate
with each other to organize instructions for combined shipment to reduce shipment costs.

i´d like to perform the tasks of getting cards to be made and executing the shipments before christmas/
new years eve.

sincerely speedyG

__________________

In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

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Posts: 1044
Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Well if it's Apple-1 stuff you can always count me in...

Cheers,
Corey

speedyG's picture
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Posts: 2376
Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

speedyG wrote:

i started to develop 3 kinds of expansioncards

for the Mimeo, Newton and Apple1

:
1 card will be designed as Prototypcard for own developments
1 card will be designed as ROMcard for 2708/2716 Eproms/ROMs or 6116 static RAM to enable the User
to add things like Basic or Programmers Aid or other software resident in EPROM/ROM
on the card es resident expansion ( which reduces loading procedures )
1 card will be designed ro be used as RAMcard with either MK4096 or MK4116 and enabeling
the user to expand memory by 4 kB, 8 kB, 16 kB or 32 kB without the need to modify the
mainboard and the used RAM will be selectable per each row similar to the Apple II with
2 plugs to be set per row.

Additionaly I want to design 1 card as slotexpansioncard to be pluged to the side of the mainboard
expanding the Mainboard by 2 more slots and with own powersupply input and regulation
to enable user the possible usage of up to 3 expansioncards and 2 of them ( those on the
extended expansioncard ) having possible independent powersupply of their own and not
causing additional load to the powersupply on the mainboard.

I would like to figure out, when the carddesign is finished how many people will be interested
in such PCB´s and in which PCB´s.

Interested users please issue your needs by pm to me here at AF.

sincerely speedyG

Please be so kind to tell in which cards there is interest.... i have to calculate for each card how many shall be manufactured by the PCB-company.....

And just another update too.... Mike Willegal reminded me that the replica 1 uses the same expansionbus and that the slotexpander and the expansioncards could be used at the replica 1 too.....


the only card that probably would be useless at the replica 1 will be the RAM-card due to the fact that the raplica 1 has populated the entire adressing space and does not need to be expanded and of course due to the second fact that the RAMcard developed by me now will be closely dependent to the adressing of the original mainboard and the timing used on that mainboard .... and that differs from the replica 1. But for Replica 1 users mostly the prototypecard will be of interest for own developments....

Previews of the cards

( still under development ! ) can be viewed at:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/appleboxApple1expansions.htm

until the design of all cards is completed that page will be updated every 2 or 3 days !

the orders and sales will be carried out as nonprofit -
only cost from PCB-manufacturer and shippingcost will be charged.


As soon as the amount of possible orders is known the negotiation with the manufacturer will be carried out.
The cost will then be published in that page.

Recognize please that there will be only one run per card.

In case of interest please tell which cards and how many.

By timetable the final order process will be executed in second week of November on the basic of pm´s made till then.

later orders can not be added or performed due to the fact that there realy will be only one run.

so please checkout this thread and the page mantioned above throughout the next 4 weeks to keep on track.

sincerely speedyG

1st EDIT: The slotexpansioncard is nearly finished in design ( final prerelease - some minor corrections possible ) so this will show the nearly final look of the card.

2nd EDIT:

The design of the slotexpansioncard is finished and it contains regulation of +12 Volt and - 12 Volt.

Today i started with the layout and design for the EPROM / static RAM Card. Regulation of +12 V and -12 V are integrated and i added several remarks about the planing of the design. I decided to also expand the use of the card to also enable user to use the 6116 static RAM. This will simplify the development of EPROMS, because the content can be previosly be tested with the static RAM chip. The chips shall be set to own selectable adressblocks to give the user the freedom to decide where the start of the chips shall be. Just read the remarks at the page for further information... and revisit the page each couple of days again to view last information on planing and infos about further development at the design......

3rd EDIT :

Today the ROMcard was continued: For adding ability to 6116 static RAM the backup NiCAD accumulator was added to the circuitary. Its integrated that way that in both modes the Accumulator will be loaded and after the Power is switched off only the 6116 chips will get supply from the accumulator and that this will only be done if the switch is in position of the 6116. Depending to the used Accumulator the chips should be able to keep their content for at least 1 week if the card is disconnected from Power. Otherwise in the opposite position of the switch the Eproms will get their power from the slot and the accumulator will be loaded but not used. Additionaly today the common adressinglines ( those where no difference is at the different chips ) and the common datalines have been added to the layer.

Tommorow i will start the blocks that determine the differing lines of the chips. They shall be selected each one by a 16pol DIP block. By inserting the specific blockplug in the carrier allocated to the socket the used chip will be selected. Thereafter the adressselection ( of the adressing-range ) of the sockets will be added.

4th EDIT:

well now after the "Selection blocks" have been added it starts getting crowded on the card and the frustrating part of the design starts..... each socket selection block needs at the "selection-row" the bunch of 7 different kinds of "controlsignals":
Vbb = -5 Volt ( 2708 only )
OE = Output Enable ( 6116 or 2716 )
Vdd = + 12 Volt ( 2708 only )
A10 = Adressline 10 ( 6116 oe 2716 )
CE = Chip Enable ( low if chip is selected - this one is used for giving the chip a specific adress which will be selected by the DIL-Switches which are generated from the 74154. Each socket will be allocated in it´s own adressing range. I did this part today too and it´s complete and in that way that every chip is located in it´s own 4 kB area of the adressingrange of the 6502 of the apple 1.The user gets by this feature the possibility to chose his own indiviual configuration in a wide range. This signal is given to every kind of chip : 6116, 2708 or 2716.
W = Write enable ( must be "low"( 0 Volt ) if information is written to the 6116 or if Eprom is to be programmed ) otherwise if you read from the chip this pin must be +5 Volt.

In the drawings if the signalname has a line above this means that the signal is active when it´s "low" ( i.e. 0 Volt ) and nonactive when "high" ( i.e. +5 Volt ).

Another point today was to add a small stbilized -5 Volt part, because that voltage is not delivered to the connector, but needed for the 2708. So it had to be picked away from the -12 Volt branch.

Vpp = Voltage Programming ( this is the Voltage needed if you want to programm the EPROM - so it´s only for 2708 or 2716 - and in case of not programming its dependent to the chip 0 Volt or + 5 Volt and while programming it shall be dependent to the chiptyp either 21 Volt or 25 Volt. In case of programming the EPROM the user must consult the databook to see which voltage is correct .... the voltage differs by typ of EPROM as well as from typ of manufacturer. As explained i want the design the card to be used also as Interface for programming the EPROMS too.

Anyhow this part with the "controllines" is the realy timeeating and frustrating part, due to missing space for the lines to be added, the missing space for the holes where you can change a line layer from bottom side to componentside and vice versa.... always hunting for a track where you can avoid the the line gets in conflict with other lines ( usually thats meant by the term of "routing" a PCB). And its commonly well known that at the end of the process when running out of space it´s the most difficult part and i´m not finished yet. This day is finished and there is only 1 "controlsignal" remaining undone left: Vpp the programmingvoltage.... and then for completion also the typeselectionplugs must be made....... thereafter i will switch back to the RAMcard and continue that task....

5th EDIT:


5 controlsignals completed and socket selectionplugs added..... just 2 points remaining: G2 at 74154 and the Vpp. Vpp will become very tricky due to the very limited space left in the lower right corner of the card and the need to integrate a generator that has input 12 Volt and must generate 21 Volt, 25 Volt and 26 Volt switchable programmingvoltage in that very limited space.... and that Vpp has to be also controlled in timing..... - this will be "the hardest nut on the card to be cracked"....

6th EDIT:

today the last comtrolsignal completed ( the G2 signal ) and connected.
Also the generation of the programmingvoltage has been completed and a lot of time was used up to fight for a little more availiable space..... now that today - after pushing and sqeezing has been completed - the card was finished with a design that reached all preset goals....

This means that i will be able to continue on Sunday with the design of the RAMcard.....

I also added now some kind of "counter" to the page that indicates how many "nonconfirmed preorders" have been made for each card....
at the moment that is very disencouraging.... the reason: if the orders remain below 10 cards there will be no chance to get a lower price from the PCBmanufacturer.... under normal conditions the first stage to reduce the price would be 25 pieces per card.... and we are far away from that .... that would mean at the moment that we would have to pay the same price like for the production of one single prototypePCB with no reduction of the price at all.....

anyhow lets stay optimistic.... there are still 2 weeks to go and probably that counts will rise...
but if you take a look by yourself to the conditions that are normaly given by PCB manufacturers you can calculate yourself what kind of difference in price i´m talking about..... just for calculation:
RAMcard : 9 cm x 16 cm = 1,44 sqare dm
Prototypecard : 8 cm x 16 cm = 1,28 sqare dm
ROMcard : 8 cm x 16 cm = 1,28 sqare dm
slotexpansioncard : 7 cm x 16,5 cm = 1,12 sqare dm
and normal pricing for a good quality PCB is somewhere about 30,00 Euro per square dm .....

the PCB´s must fullfill the following conditions:

2 sided
contactthrough holes...
thicker copperlayer...
goldcovering at the contacts

at least if the orders later keep below 25 boards per each type.....

under that conditions it might even be better to get them manufactured in the USA....
the only problem: they cant match the quality given here in Germany because the 2 manufacturers here also carry out the qualitystandards for the european ESA, which are at least 2 steps better than those standards given by the NASA...
and surely everybody wants reliable cards that have a high quality precesion standards given here and will last for several years of usage....

but hey... lets first get the cardlayouts finished and then optimized in a CAD system .... and see where the counter than amounts up to....
it´s then early enough to crack our heads on that issues...

7th EDIT

Now back again to the RAMcard..... today i started with the datalines and bound them compatible with the mainboard to the 8T97 drivers.... i switched back to them because the timing with the 74245 would not be so close to the timing of the mainboard in comparision to the 8T97 where the timing is absolut identic.....
the 74154 that was placed on the board will solve the same issue like on the ROMcard - it will provide the card with free selectable adressingranges for the RAM banks and i will integrate again DIP switches to handle that adressselection for each bank seperate..... this gives the user the freedom to select free which kind of RAM he wants to use in each bank and which range it will be located to.....

tommorows task will be to connect the voltages and add the capacitors to the voltage lines for cleaning the powersource from dirty spikes and then i want to get the datalines connected to the slotconnections and the four adressinglines A12, A13, A14 and A15 connected to the 74154 which will be needed for the blockarea decoding...

8th EDIT:


well now the datalines are connected to the 8T97 chips and the the Connectionpads at the card. The next step will be to connect the disable line of the 8T97 to the Connectionpads at the card. The problem is that this signal is generated on the mainboard from different sources added to a logicchip and that that signal isn´t present at the connector ( it´s not the R/W signal itself...! ) . It must be generated similar to the mainboard and it must be kept syncronous the the timing on the mainboard .... and then the adressinglines A0 to A4 ( in fact they are the lines RA1 to RA5 where RA is interpreted as ROW/COLUMN ADRESSINGLINE - which represent the switched A0 to A4 and the A6 to A10 ) and after these lines are connected
- the next problem to solve will be the RA6 which would be needed for the 4116 chips ( that line would represent the switched A5 and A11 lines ) ....

everybody must bear in mind that the adressing of the RAM is performed in 2 steps: first step adressing the so called "row" which represent the "lower byte of adressinglines A0 to A5 triggered to the chip by the RAS signal ( RAS = Row Adress Strobe ) and then showing up with the "upper byte" of the adressing lines from A6 to A11 as so called "column" triggered by the CAS signal = Column Adress Strobe....

so this signal has to be generated ( similar to the signals at the motherboard ) on the card....

and finally after that i´ll have to start the adressing of the physical rows of chips on the card similar to the ROMcard and this will be tricky too ...
the reason:
the ROMs are switched in 4 k blocks, but if using the 4116 RAM chips they have to be switched in 16 k blocks and they must be selected at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th part of the 4 k block too....
but it´s not permitted to just link those lines at the 74154 together.... that would just result in 1 line "low" and 3 lines !"high" ( which would not only damage the chip - it also wouldn´t work at the Chip enable line of the RAM .... so there must be some kind of logic instead integrated on the card with a logic like: if 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 is low the output will turn low... if neither 1 nor 2 nor 3 nor 4 is low the output must remain high.... BUT (!) : if MK4096 is used the selection must remain just only within one 4 kB boundary...

9th EDIT

well the control of the 8T97 in the 7410 is nearly completed, but there are still 2 lines that must be integrated to the design,
the selection of the adressing of the 2 rows...... because each row recieves its own adressing of the used 4-kB blocks,
this must be completed first, to recieve the missing two lines to complete the controlling of the 8T87 - its represented
in the moment in the plans symbolic.
so therefor now the integration of the decoding for the rows was started by getting the signals of the blocks to the
DIL-switches - if the row uses MK4096 chips only one switch is to be set - if MK4116 is used then 4 switches must be
set
to define a 16k block.... and then if MK4116 is used that 4 lines must be "collected" to one "row-signal" at the 8T97chips
- this will be performed by the 7420 that is placed between the switches and the right 8T97 ( the 7420 is at the moment
just placed in but not connected ) .... that will be the next issue.... and it´s getting more difficult to handle the
remaining shrinking space.... anyhow... it´s making progress...

and as explained before the adressing has been partialy completed... the RA0 to RA5 is rather simple because these are availiable to the connector and they have been now connected to the related lines... thats fine for the MK4096 chips - but for the MK4116 chips the RA6 must still be generated somehow on the card due to the fact that it is not availiable at the connector .... that also will request at least one more chip not present on the board and at the moment i have no idea were to place that chip.... if that chip will placed at the outer borderside below the row chip selection plugs it will become very difficult to get the signals from the commector to that place.....

__________________

In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

tranter's picture
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Posts: 23
Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

I'm enjoying following the progress of your design. Are you going to post schematics of the completed designs?

Also, as it sounds like the order of boards may be a one time build, could you make the Gerber files for the PCBs available for people who might want to order their own boards at a later date?

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello Trantar,

at the moment both points are in decisionprocess....

the schematics will of course be released in the final documentation and eyeryone, that orders will have at point of PCB delivery also the schemtics and detailed PDF-files - where for example the assemblingpicture will be be enlarged for better reading with detailed description of the function of each card....when the cards are completely finished i also intend to write a program for the Epromcard for use as programmer.....

in later progress also i want to develop the sourcecode for several Eproms with documented adds similar to the comments that i published with the Gameportextension, that i published up till now ... allthough that programm was not completed yet - it also will be completed in the next summer with use as joystick-calibration and a construction manual to make a plotter for use with the gameport..... you will find the related topic within my trackinglist here....
see for reference the thread
http://www.applefritter.com/content/hardware-developement-and-special-topics
the mentioned pages are availiable at:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/appleboxdownload.htm
that page contains a overview of different projects and hardware descriptions that is updated periodicaly....

the development of the eproms to be used with the EPROMcard will be :
resident Apple1 basic
resident Assembler for creating Apple1 6502 machinecode including a small editor...
documentation how to make a library of own "game-eproms" that permit resident games to be started from eprom
and something similar to the "programmers aid no.1" from eprom for the apple1

i must anyhow perform the translation of each card from graphical layout to gerber-files after the layout of all cards have been completed..... its the preliminary process required before i can passover the order to a PCBmanufacturer...

the decision of releasing the gerberfiles will be anyhow dependent to the order-status when that point of contacting the PCBmanufacturer is in current schedule....

sincerely speedyG

10th EDIT

I´ll continue here the updates and EDITs to keep that at the bottomline of the thread.....
because the cards must be converted to Gerber-files when they will be processed to the PCB-manufacturer i started that task besides 2 days ago....
usually i make the boards myself up to 2 sided layers - but that won´t meet the standards that i request for this boards, because i can´t make contactthrough boards.. at the other hand no PCB-manufacturer works today anymore with positiv-film like i do with my own PCBs .... first i examined the internet to find a solution to get a handy tool for converting PCB-films to Gerberfiles.... but there is nothing payable available... so next i started hunting for a CAE-system that is payable and can handle PCBs up to size of eurocard ( 10 cm x 16 cm ) or doublesize ( 20 cm x 16 cm ) ..... i´m not able to pay several hundreds of bucks just for a conversion of some 3 or 4 PCB´s to meet the requirements of the PCB-manufacturer....
After a while i found KiCAD. There is a nonrestricted version availiable for non commercial use. I downloaded it and made a short roundview after installation. First thing that i recognized, was that the components are not very strong integrated so each part can be used by itself - you have a programm for developing the schematics.... another program to make the PCB and routing and a third program to make the gerberfiles.

Then i started to create a libraryfile for the Apple1 PCB connector.... when i opened the help files and the documentation i recognized that the documentation must be from a previous version and has not been updated yet.... in the meantime there must have been a change with commandstructure and the related icons..... and the topic of creating a realy new device is realy boring due to the fact that the footprints are not integrated but instead in another file..... - and the description is realy more than poor about that topic.... i had to make 3 attempts till i got at least some kind of satisfying result.....

anyhow - that was the most tricky part of the job... the rest of the components are within the normal library and therefor that part of the task won´t be even reqire so much time like i wasted up with the PCB-connector....
just one funny trick will remain.... i had to start the boards with inch as measurement but for the rest of the design i have to switch back to millimeters....

thats enough for today..... tommorow i´ll continue with the A6 coding decoding for the 4116 chips....

11th EDIT

well yesterday i´ve spent the entire day at the electronica fair in munich.... it´s the largest european fair related to electronics.... but back to the task...

i´ve analyzed in the last days all of the known / documented former modifications of the apple1 related to the 4116 chip ( the one here in a thread [which seems to contain several mistakes ] - and the three versions covered by the description of Dr. Wendell Sander [ which is really excellent ]....:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/apple1/Apple%201%2032K%20and%2020K%20Memory%20Upgrade.pdf
(link to the description from Dr. Wendell Sander )

the study of that solutions just lead back to a rootproblem:
several signals used at the mainboardmodifications for the timing of the demux function ( thats the switching between rowadress and columnadress ) and the generation for the final RA6 ( which would have to be made from A12 and A13 ) are not availiable at the slot..... this leads up to the problem of 2 possible solutions:

solution 1: generate the missing signals from those signals availiable at the slot... that would require at least 3 more chips on the card and this would cause the card to become larger and very complicated ( specially because that signals must keep syncronous to the mainboard ... )

solution 2: pick the required signals at the mainboard and bridge them to the pin-connections R, S, and T which lead to the slot and pick them up from there.... in that case only 2 additional chips would be requested.... thats still difficult ... it would need again some re-arrangeing of the chips to keep the card at size and with more compressed layout....

solution 1: is not my very favorite solution and it would require much more time than i have calculated ....

at the other hand solution 2 does not match with my upmost requirement to keep the mainboard untouched....
it would request that at least 3 wires must be added / soldered from the 3 sources of the needed signals to the 3 holes R, S and T close to the 74154 to get these signals availiable on the slot.....
the good thing in this solution: no traces on the mainboard must be cut so it´s easy to make a step back to original condition of the board again, if the 3 wires are removed by unsoldering them .....

I´d appreciate some feedback on this topic....

anyhow it´s good luck that today the second Mimeo mainboard arrived ... so i´m at the moment checking out the traces on the bare board if there is any chance to get the requsted 3 signals from any other source at the slot....

the problem is related to the fact that several signals at the mainboard are not very well documented (i.e. VMA, BA, and RF )....

addon to 11th Edit:

the wires at the mainboard can´t be reduced due to the fact that after analysis it turned out, that at the socket the pin RF equals to the refreshline in Dr. Wendell Sanders schematics..... so at the slot the missing lines remain to: CAS, V4 and AdressMUX.

second addon to the 11th EDIT:

I´ve uploaded the picture to show, where the 3 wires would have to be added at the mainboard to get the missing signals to the slot and the altered schematic from Dr. Wendell Sander to show which changes will be needed.
Though the change has not been integrated in to the RAMcard itself yet ( i will start to add that changes there in the next 2 or 3 days.... ) i will continue on this path. Up till now no feedback was given, so i will assume that those who are interested in the cards developed, to agree with this solution.

__________________

In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

Offline
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Posts: 80
Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

I also looked at doing and external DRAM card for the Apple 1 and saw the same issues. I concluded that the clean solution was to reproduce the address multiplexing on the external board and create independent timing on the external board using late write timing on the DRAM. That allows for pretty loose timing that was easy to create.

If you use the muxed addresses from the Apple 1 they should be buffered on the external board, if you don't buffer them then at least provide for series resistors (22-47 ohm) in the address lines to reduce ringing.

The extra refresh address is pretty easy to generate from the other refresh addresses, fortunately they are there. Be sure to disable CAS during refresh cycles, I need to update that on my documents.

The BA line is synch, an output from the 6502 and is a signal that tells when op codes are being fetched, VMA is not used on the 6502, it is tied to VDD on the 6501 and is shown as open on 6502 data sheets. Interestingly if the short from VMA to +5 is replaced with a surface mount resistor it should be possible to disable all on board addressing from a peripheral card. This would allow for substitution for all on board addresses including the boot ROM. I have not tried that.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

CAS and Address Mux are essentially the same signal and CAS can be generated from Address Mux with a gate delay, V4 can be generated from by dividing the V3 which is available during refresh cycles. So you should only need Address Mux. You will need to pull the w or x signal to get the address muxing.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello wsander,
i´m very glad to read your comments... your hints are very valuable to me .... the explanations to the noncommented signals are very usefull.... at the moment i just intend to try a design close to your modification..... after that is completed i want to make at least one prototype with wirewrap for testing and making measurements with the oscilloscope....

At the other side i want to try to keep the size of the card within the limits of 10 cm x 16 cm which is a common size limit in Europe - the so called eurocard.... at the one side the limit shall be that the card in the hight does not get higher than 9 cm with its slotconnectionpads ... and the other side should not exceed the 16 cm more than 1 cm so the final size should be limited to 17 cm - it would keep us away from higher prices over "oversize" prototype pricing....

I try to keep the timing close to the mainboard without the extended RAM-access timing... and at the other side it is my goal to keep the RAMcard as variable as possible ( meaning to be able to chose the type of RAM used in each row seperat and at the other side the ability to select the adress of each row so the user - depending to the chips he used - can select the adressing that way - that he can use the entire RAM he inserted in the cards as one entire block just right above the memory inserted on the mainboard.... and the ability - if he uses the slotconnector expansion and the ROMcard - then he shall be able to use additional RAM on the EPROMboard ( as 6116 chips ) to be added just above to the entire memory without leaving holes between...

anyhow before the cards all together will be released to final status - all cards will be revised for integrity with the other cards and the clean cooperation between each other....

and after the examination of the hurdles found for the RAMcard - it seems rather sure that i will have to make at least 3 types of prototyping versions before the real final release will be availiable....
if you realy update your own documentation i realy would be glad to get a link to that updates....

when i analyzed the thread / posting from Tom Owad related to the upgrading of the Apple1 RAM and transmitted it to the circuitplan, i was rather irritated... the notation is difficult to understand because of the numbers in the middle of the notation.... i can´t believe that realy outputs shall be fixed to powersourcelines.... there seem to be mistakes in that posting.... probably it´s just my fault of misunderstanding the notation....

i just update my pages about the cards to give those persons, that are interested in the cards, a intimate view of the development process - and offer the chance also to come along with own ideas that probably might be integrated in the development if they match with the goals of the cards....

up to the moment feedback has been rather small ... thats quite similar to the experience that i made with my other thread of development and special topics too....

that leaded me up to a point that i at least started to generate some kind of "basics" pages to different topics to give better understanding to different hardware issues..... after completion of this cards i will continue and turn back on that track again ....

again thak you very much for your valuable remarks and comments...
sincerely yours speedyG

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Feedback for expanded Apple 1 memory board

Sorry I didn't comment on this last week, as I was traveling and didn't get a chance.
I wanted to give feedback regarding the signals you're missing and the 2 solutions you mention.

Just my opinion, but I think it would be better to re-generate the signals on the card rather than run the jumpers. I realize this increases chip count on the card, but it also makes the card run independent of external modifications to the motherboard. (even thought slight) That in itself is my sole motivator. The signals should sync up closely without much difficulty.
Either way, I remain interested in getting all 3 projects when you're finished, and thanks for posting these great projects.

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Re: Feedback for expanded Apple 1 memory board

Hello macnoyd,
i feel similar ( as i explained my primary goal is to keep the mainboard untouched....) and the actual card would be a compromise....
anyhow - don´t bother if i continue first the solution with less chips and taking the signals from the board....
i will also - after this design is completed - also try to make one with signals on the card only with more chips....
also second version will be documented in the known page just below the current one....

before final release will be issued anyhow both versions will be tested in "rough duty mode" and in cooperation with the other cards....

it´s just a pitty because i had hope to release the entire bunch of cards within this year.....

the problems with the RAMcard cause delay and so the final release slips ahead to February or March next year....
a simple card would have requested 3 or 4 weeks but making several alternate cards requests at least 2 or 3 months....
so anyhow i guess the actual card won´t be of interest to you, but you then should rather more watch the development of the second alternate card.... the final decission will be made after both cards have been tested and measured....
speedyG

12th EDIT:

Due to the fact that it´s clear that at least 2 or 3 versions will be made and tested prior to the release of a final version, i started to enter the RAMcard in CAEsystem of KiCAD. that should at least save time, when the second and third version will be developed, because then i just have to redisign the Adressing of RA6 and the driving of the controllines in different versions. As result of this, the circuitplans will be some kind of "garbage" left beside.
So i now also added the actual status graphics of the circuitplan in the page and update that graphics temporary dependent to the progress.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

I will take all three cards, possibly two sets.

Thanks and May the Force be with You...

dcarlton

Don't Anthropomorphize computers…they hate that. anonymous

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Continuing the Updates at the bottom of the thread:

13th EDIT:

Today i had several other tasks, but besides i could enter the plan of the ROMcard in the CAEsystem - so now the shematic is also availiable in the page. This was a task that had to be done anyhow, because later that plan will have to be moved to the PCB-design editor of the programm to generate the Gerberfiles needed later for the manufacturing. I still have to add 3 lines in the schematic tommorow, but at least now the general overview of the ROMcard is availiable... the most interesting part for people interested in electronics, will be the part that shows how the voltage for the programming is generated - because it´s not a very common solution with transistors - but rather more seldom a solution with CMOSlogic in one single chip and only few external parts.... input:12 V output: limited to 30 Volt.... in fact the output can make up to 35 Volts - dependent to the used parts and the operationfrequency, which is dependent to the capacitor in the first part of the generator. It can deliver up to 75 mA which is enough for programming...

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

The RAM upgrade document has been updated at

http://www.apple1notes.com/old_apple/Notes.html

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

14th EDIT:

First of all thanks to Dr.Wendell Sander for the update of his documentation. Yesterday i just entered the Slotexpansionboard in general to the CAEsystem and after that was completed i converted the printout to GIF-File and added it to the page. In the meantime i´m back to the details of analyzing the details of how to generate the controllines CAS, RAS, V4 amd the control of the timing of the RA6 signal again. This will be needed for the 2nd version of the RAMcard to get rid of bridging cables on the mainboard..... but that timing is more tricky than it looks alike... if i would have kept the design only to MK4116 or only to MK4096 it would have been easier.... but if i insist to keep that card flexible to choose either the one sort or the other per row - then that timing is realy tricky, because it has to also work with both kinds of chips....

15th EDIT:

well today i just proof myself to be also vulnerable to simple and stupid mistakes.....
i made a printout of the cards and compared them with the real mainboard... and "oh sh...." -
i discovered that all cards have to be rerouted and the layout changed....
what happened ? Well when i started the design i picked up the picture of the apple1 slot pinout from the internet....
i forgot to compare the picture with the realworld mechanic ( compare at least some lines like the voltages with the connector at the board ) - anyhow the result was : the entire layout based out on a turnaround of the connector in the picture....

that again proves the rule that everyone has to control his own developments and double check it at least a second time...


it´s a good thing that i discovered the mess in this stage, because it´s exactly at the point, that no orders have been handed over to the PCBmanufacturer and i´m still entering the circuitplans in the CAEsystem - so it´s not to much work to change the layout of the PCB´s and rearrange the components.....

anyhow.... at the moment all layouts published as film on the page have to solve a entire revision....
i will mark the changed layout as "

after Revision

" in the page the moment that card has been rearranged and relocated...
but that will again cost several days till all the cards have been rearranged.... i hope this task is completed till mid of next week....
sincerely speedyG

16th EDIT:

Today the revision of the slotexpansionboard has been completed and i finally found out how to get the footprints of the new ( in fact obsolete and outdated ) parts in the library integrated. That was one of the main hurdles in the CAEsystem, because there is no real description how that works... and the entrypoint to enter the footprints is rather well hidden... ..gotcha!....
so progress is slow but steady going ahead....
sincerely speedyG

17th EDIT:

Today the ROMcard has been corrected and revised and is nearly completed - but the size is much to large at the moment... before passing over the card to the PCB manufacturer the hight must be reduced at least by 2 cm and the length of the card must be shortended at least by 2 to 4 cm.

That will require that i have to route the card manually instead of using that autoroutingsystem of the CAE system..... that autorouter does a very poor job ! The real advantage is, that this system permits to make fast changes in the layout and that corrections are immediatly transported to the other related parts of the developement, so a change for example in the circuitplan immediatly causes a change in the list of parts, in the list of the footprints, in the general PCB-layoutsystem and i don´t have to care anymore about 2 different films that have to match at 2 allocationpoints to be sure that the pins stay above each other. But at this stage i can at least say that the card has nearly the final layout and just muct be tweaked a little bit and that manual layout of the card to get better optimized size will only cost another 2 days later..... so finally at this point i´m back again to my RAMcard problem and the tricky handling of the availiable signals to get rid of the wires on the mainboard.... the problems are still the same ( timing of both kinds of chips with on layout... ) tricky task....
sincerely speedyG

18th EDIT:

Just updated and corrected the prototypcard and this is now the very final version with the corrected size and the final corrected layout. Please note that at the card the +12 Volt and the -12 Volt are regulated because at the slot only the unregulated voltage is availiable ! In fact the regulation can be left unpopulated, if it is not required.
And besides also +5 Volt can be made if that part is populated... - it will be dragged from the +12 Volt branch because that - 5 Volt are not availiable at the slot ! The layout is calculated that way, that even the regutation chips may be equiped with small heatsinks if required - there is enough space left for that option..
sincerely speedyG

19th EDIT:

Allthough today not realy a update is performed in the related page - i decided to publish the following notes about the stage of development..... if anybody has a better idea - it will be welcome....

as explained earlier the RAMcard suffers from the fact, that the really important signals are not availiable at the slot....

for better understanding :

at the crystal there is a frequency of 14,xxx Mhz availiable... that signal is not availiable at the slot, but only passed over within circuits at the videosection of the board....
the next slower signal is the 7 Mhz signal ( 7M )- also not availiable at the apple 1 mainboard-slot - compared to the Apple II which offers that signal at pin 36 of the apple II slot.

also important for the timing is the Q3 signal - which is used for the basic videotiming ( and that timing is closely related at the Apple II for refresh, because at the apple II the RAM is refreshed in the cycles while reading data from the video-area of the RAM )whinch is nearly half of a normal operation cycle - this signal is also not availiable at the apple 1 slot - but it is at the apple II slot at pin 37.

There is a so called refresh-signal itself availiable at pin 1 ( RF ) but even after examining the circuitplan its not realy very clear if that is only one timed impulse or if it in fact is something like a shifted ( i.e. delayed ) 3,5 Mhz signal.

The really availiable signals are the phi0, phi1 and the phi2 signals.... whereas the phi2 is in fact just the inverted phi0 signal with very slight delay..... these 3 signals are all in fact 2 Mhz signals...... and they are all 3 signals availiable at the apple1 slot....

So here is the problem: In fact the timing of the RAS-signal is something like a pulsed delayed signal with about 40% of the Phi0 and the CAS-signal is a pulsed delayed signal also again nearly 40% of phi0 but delayed by the 40% of the RAS-signal AFTER the RAS-signal !

And the rest 20% of the Phi0 signal is the time where the CPU picks the valid content from the RAM or stores content to the RAM with some slight minor "shifting" forward or backward....

The same statements are also valid for the V4 signal and the adress-MUX signal - that is used for generating the RA6 ( Row/Colomn Adress signal ) required for the pin 13 at the MK4116 RAM-chips ( where at the MK4096 chips instead the chip select signal ( CS )is used )

In both cases the above mentioned signals are all generated by using dividing counterchips and shiftregisters and the fact that these signals are generated within the one single CHAIN of chips guarantees that the signals are in a syncronous relation to each other.....

So basicly it´s easy to get a slower signal from a faster one by passing it through a countingchip.... but it´s nearly impossible to do this the other way around i.e. it´s not possible to generate faster signals ( higher frequency )from a slower one ( lower frequency ) !

We are talking about a phi0 signal that has a duration of completely something about 490 nanoseconds....
the shift to RAS is something close to 20 nanoseconds delay
- the RAS signal itself has a duration of 245 nanoseconds but only about 80 nanoseconds active
- the CAS signal itself has also a duration of nearly 245 nanosecondes but its delayed about 120 to 130 nanoseconds LATER than the point, where the RAS-signal becomes active.....
so these delays are starting nearly exactly at the delay of one cycle of the 7M signal which is not availiable at the apple 1 slot and the durations and further delays are nearly äquivalent to the 4th cycle of the 14 Mhz signal and the 8th cycle of the 14 Mhz signal..... or if comparing to the 7M signal it´s the second cycle and the forth cycle....

so the idea is close to what engineers know well from the generation of echo sequences in audio technic.... just a little bit modified...:

i´m calculating by timetable and datasheets different delays of different gates of chips to get a rather reliable average delay by one gate of some 20 nanoseconds and connecting the output of that delay-chain ( made by using 3 or 5 gates ) to the entrance - this will turn out to be something like a generator in fact that produces cycles of 20 nanoseconds and that is sycronized by one gate in the chain and forces then the chain to work syncronized to the phi0 signal as a kind of "kick-it-on" signal and that synchronizes the sicgnal at the rising edge of each phi0 signal - but in the meantime after being "kicked-on" produces faster pulses in the intermiting time between till the next "kick-on" occurs....

with that faster pulses it should be possible to produce precise timed delays by picking the pulses of a dividing-dounter behind that generator and the counter as well as the generation of the faster pulses both being syncronized by the riseg edge of the phi0 signal should syncronize the entire timing on the RAMcard with the timing on the mainboard and the bus and timing-signals from the mainboard at the CPU.

The bad news is that by this technique at least another couple of chips will be required on the card ( up to my calculation now at least 4 or 5 chips....

I´m curious about the opinions of the more experienced techfreaks on this idea.....
feedback is welcome while i´m trying to go ahead this path....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

IMHO I'd say add the chips. I suspected you'd get to that point anyway and it appears the right way to do it.
Making a larger PCB looks inevitable (I see that was a concern of yours a few Edits back) but by your detailed description, it looks like the right course of action. Lest you add a PAL to replace some of that TTL. Wink J/K on the PAL.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello macnoyd,
as explained earlier - it is one of my preliminary defined goals to keep the design limited to parts that have been availiable in those days of the apple 1 - otherwise i would have had the chance earlier to "walk the easy path" and just use a pic or mcu and some smaller serial eepromchips similar to the replica 1...... i probably might try to do that alternate task later - but at the moment i´ll still try to keep up the limitation to so called "authenticity" meaning to keep the cards as close as possible to the design of the mainboard itself... and that would mean: "do not use chips that have not been availiable in the time from 1975 to 1978/79".

Using a pal chip would make the task very much easier... thats for sure and it would keep the card very much smaller - that´s for sure too.... but pal-chips entered the market 5 years later... and that would break the goal of authenticity... and i would only surrender to the pal-chip if i´m without any alternative design... - i hope / guess that even WOZ would side with this attempt.... just even if understood as a challenge... - but your right - as final solution if no other alternate design is possible - the palchip will be a safe solution... and it would realy increase the chance to shrink the card down in size .....
but at least now i´m one step ahead that i will overcome the timingproblems with a little more efforts by producing the needed "sub-signals" on the card to create a precise and reliable timing...
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello SpeedyG,
I'm totally with you regarding using chips available in 1975
I was just kidding regarding the Pal. Smile (re: J/K on the Pal)
What you're doing is great and I continue to follow your work
and dedication.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

20th EDIT:

Hello AF-members,

i must confess that this week was a realy boring task..... after quite a lot attempts and studying the circuitplans and the plans of the timingcharts and thinking the problems over and over again, it seems that finally i can state that this challenge has been completed.....

after the basic path turned out, how to solve the missing signals the first edition of the circuitplan was quite disencouraging... to many chips .... after the forth revision it was possible to reduce the amount of requested extra chips to an acceptable minimum... and after three further revisions the size of the card could be reduced to an acceptable size..... - in fact that card with 16 RAMchips and timing-circuits is not much larger, than the former languagecard of the apple II with only 8 RAMchips....

so finally i can announce, that

the RAMcard should now work without any modification of the mainboard.... !


But before we light up the candles on the birthdaycake.... unless i have tested a real card with the real timing, i don´t want to claim the problem to be finally solved.... i´ll just claim at the moment : it looks like being solved....

in fact the timeshifting in the beginning of the phase0 signal between 40 and 60 nanoseconds is rather tricky and same is valid to the shifting in the second part of the signal when CAS becomes strobed and valid.... and unless i have seen that read as well as write commands have been performed in time, before the Phase2 signal strikes and terminates operations of the commandsequence... i´ll stay sceptic....

but even if the timing gets rather close together there are still some chances to get the task done correct.... in fact both signals are finally generated by a 74123 chip with 2 monoflops and the timing is dependent to the use of a capacitor and a resistor...

so probably a finetuning there will solve upcoming issues... but at least i guess that there will be a need to use in the specific part resistors with not more than 1% tolerance ( as used in measurement and precesion hardware ) and same is valid to the capacitors... ( simple ceramic-capacitors won´t do that job ... that´s for sure ...- because they have a tolerance of 20% or more ) it will be recommended to use at least foilcapacitors with tolerance of 2,5 % or less...

anyhow...

up till now: CHEERIO !

sincerely speedyG

i hope that i will have a real card for testing in the middle of january to verify the expaectad behavior....

21st EDIT:

In the meantime i just switched back to a project, that i started a few months ago and now just kicked it a few steps ahead:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/applebox_soundcard.htm
A combined Sound and Speechcard for the Apple II series, that was announced in the special projects thread....
if anybocy is interested he can read there the information on the targeting of that card..... one of the main targets is, that the card shall work as well in the Apple II and IIe series but also support the IIGS ....

within the next days the next task will be to reduce the size of the apple 1 Eprom card......
sincerely speedyG
.
.
.
.

22nd EDIT:

Well, today the task of optimizing the epromcard was successfully completed.....
the card is now just 3 cm more high than the ACI and only 8 cm in total high ( including the slot connectionpads !
Compared with the former cardlayout with nearly 12,7 cm hight this is a reduction by nearly 40 % !
And also the layout has been changed for better balance....
in the former card the accumulator was allocated far away from the slot - close to the powerregulation......
now this layout has been rearranged with the accumulator above the slot and therefor much better balancing...

a further chance to optimize the card is rather low... reducing the size now will cause either some traces to
not be routable.... I just tried to reduce the hieght by only 5 mm and that caused 4 traces not to be routable
anymore..... there are some "bottleneck"- areas that won´t permit further hight reduction....

so now this is the very final version that will be passed over to the PCB-manufacturer to get the first "tryout-prototyp" of this card and i don´t expect any changes in later time....

so we can state at the moment,
that the prototypecard,
the RAMcard,
and the ROMcard
are at the final layout-version.


Anyone who orders a card listed above, is recommended to realize that then also
at least one slotexpansionboard will be requested for use,
due to the fact that
the only slot availiable on the mainboard is dedicated to the ACI and
with another card in there and without ACI plugged in another added slot
makes it impossible to load or save programms !
the only card at the moment, that i want to get optimized a little bit more,
will be the slotexpansioncard....

I´ll try to get the files and the first order for testversions of the cards in the first week of January
passed over to the PCB-manufacturer and i expect them to be delivered in my place for testing in the third week of January.

I want the final testing to be completed till 3rd week of February.

I want then to make at the end of February the final run of cards ordered up till then.


So cards ordered up till then, will be shipped during March 2013 and the shipments will be published in an orderpage on the site sinilar to the handling used by Mike Willegal.

SO NOW PLEASE REVIEW THE ENTIRE SECTION !

CHECKOUT IF A MAIL WITH STATEMENT OF PREORDER IS STILL VALID OR MUST BE CHANGED / UPDATED !

AFTER THAT RUN HAS BEEN HANDED OVER AS ORDER TO THE PCB-manufacturer THERE WILL BE FOR A
VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME NO CHANCE FOR ANOTHER RUN !

I HAVE ON THE PAGE A COUNTER THAT DISPLAYS ACTUAL COUNT ON THE PRE-ORDERS.
DEPENDENT TO THE COUNTER YOU CAN CALCULATE THE ACTUAL PRICE OF THE CARD:
LESS THAN 10 CARDS will result to 50,00 to 60,00 Euro per Card
10 to 25 Cards will cause a drop that results to 40,00 to 49,00 Euro per Card
25 to 50 Cards will cause a drop that results to 32,00 to 42,00 Euro per Card.
This will be exactly the same cost i have to pay by myself for the cards !

As soon as the testcards arrive, i will also publish a calculation
of approximate cost of the parts requested to populate the
Cards....

In the meantime - the final optimization of the slotexpansioncard is completed now too -
i´ll wotk on the final documentation.....

On last week of April 2013 there will be a Vintage Computer Festival in Munich ( VCFe ):
http://www.vcfe.org/E/index.html
where i will present the cards in action at the exhibitionplace of the AUGE
( Apple User Group Europe ) together with a Mimeo and Newton replication of the Apple 1
( so both versions of replicas will be present - the NTI version and the pre NTI-version )

sincerely
speedyG

23rd EDIT:

at the moment while working on the documentation of the apple 1 cards and preparing the order of the testoing versions of the cards i just switched over to another playground at:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/applebox_soundcard.htm
and continued the development of the sound- and speechcard for the apple II series.....
the progress can be followed at:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/hardware-developement-and-special-topics?page=1#comment-65844
that might be interesting to those who also play along with the apple II computers...
within the 2 or 3 next days there will be a period of missing progress due to the holidays....
so i wish to all AF-members here a merry chistmas and pleasent holidays....
sincerely speedyG

24th EDIT:

Hello to all members together,
i hope everybody had a good slip over new years eve and arrived well in 2013. In the meantime i have started comparing the prices of different PCB-manufacturers amd i have started ordering the very first versions of the boards for testing. I expect them to arrive within the next 14 days so i can start soldering them in the first week of february and testing/evaluating them in February - then i will also issue pictures of the completly build up of the cards in the page....

In the meantime i´m starting with the documentation and writing of manuals for each card.....
in fact i have not done proofreading to correct typing mistakes - but it will give a first impression of the documantation that will be availiable for each card.... and of course its not complete at the moment....
but it shall give also information beyond the bare instruction of how to solder the card and how to set switches....
it shall also give impressions, how to use the card also with advanced ideas ....
so its probably a good idea to take a first view...
I´ll be glad for any kind of feedback and later after the primary printable releases will be issued ( they will be indicated as "prerelease of printable veersion" ) in the page - i´ll also be glad to get feedback if everything is understood well and if the text is also usable for "non-technical" users....

I started first with the documentation of the ROMcard...

it will also be updated every few days, depending to the progress on writing them....

and besides i´m also starting to create the required webpages to handle the upcomming orders....
the real ordering process will be launched in the last week of January or the first week of February...

sincerly speedyG

25th EDIT:

one important change has been made to the slotexpansionboard:
an additional + 5 Volt branch has been added. By that it is possible to add
additonal power to the +5 Volt branch with external powersupply.
This was added after a recalculation of the remaining power on
the motherboard has been done. The reserve on the mainboard remains
only to 0,6 Ampere and if in the slotexpansionboard the RAMcard is completely populated
and the ROMcard inserted, the remaining power source might fail due to
overload.
It therefor is recommended to add more power to the +5 Volt
branch besides the stabilisation of the +12 Volt and -12 Volt.
Due to the fact that this change was made after the testboards have been
ordered from the PCB-manufacturer my testboards won´t have that change, - but the ones
ordered by the AF users will have that additional change.

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

26th EDIT:

well yesterday the first 2 testing cards arrived and i started assembling them.
So now there are several important updates made to the page !

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/appleboxApple1expansions.htm

Those who intend to order should take a few minutes to view the Update and
the remarks to changes, that will occur to the boards that will be ordered.

On the Slotexpansionboard there will be 3 changes:
On the testing cards the Slotconnectionpads are not goldplated - on the cards,
that will be ordered that contacts will of course be goldplated !
On the testing card the +5 Volt branch was not added when ordering the testing cards -
on the PCBs that will be delivered that branch will be on the card !
The holes for the slots will be enlarged in the cards that will be delivered.
On the ROM-card the same is valid to the slotsonnectionpads - the tesing cards are
without gold plating - but the cards delivered to those who order will have
goldplated slotconnectionpads.
The card is not populated entirely - i´m still looking around for a good NiCAD-
battery and when assembling one zener-diode was not in the shelf of spares...
and the normal sockets are just temporary and will be replaced also with zero-force sockets
like at socket4 place.

but the picture will give a good impresion of the possible assembly of the card and i added
the measurements.

several comments in the pictures themselves....

i expect the RAMcard and the Prototypecard to arrive as testing card version within the next 14 days.
In the next 14 days i will start testing the cards with burnin tests and several other tests and
besides make again pictures from assembling and adding the pictures in the manuals that will be
offered for download..... similar to the part of the manual that is viewabla partialy in the page for
the ROMcard.

sincerely speedyG

27th Edit:

Just uploaded the realistic views of the prototypecard and the RAMcard.
Please recognize that in the RAMcards in the current version there are still several jumpers on board,
that will be only on the TESTboard versions. The reason is for the tests. Because the timing is that cruical
and critical i expect that i must make expanded measurements and possibly also changing in componentvalues and
therefor i inserted that jumpers as testpoints to easily access the relevant signals for measurement with
oscilloscope while in action. In fact in the final version this jumpers wil be removed because they cause
expansions to the timing, that must later be supressed and eliminated.

Finally i also want to try to crush down the size a litttle bit more and get the card less high - but i guess i can only lower the height of the card by 6 mm to 10 mm. So i guess the RAMcard still to remain at least 1,5 cm heigher than the ROMcard. Besides i´m finishing up the final orderpages for the orderprocess and eliminating some security issues in the scripts to block off spammers and spamBots and keeping access strictly limited in access to ordering persons only..

Well today this Friday the testversions of the RAMcard and the Prototypcard arrived......
i just scanned them and uploaded the pictures to the page..... - but the assembly and the resulting pictures may be delayed a few days..... i cought an awfull cough and i will therefor stay a least today for the rest of the day and tomorrow in bed.....

also the second Lexanboard arrived today so i may begin in the next week with the second transparent case... as explained i want to exhibit at the VCFe in Munich both availiable versions of the apple 1 replications ( the MIMEO as the "preNTI" verion and the Newton NTI as the NTI version ) .... in the next weeks i will start also to prepare a contribution with the pictures and documentation of both models.....

please bear in mind that both versions will be supplied with testversions of the boards discussed in this thread and hopefully they will then be tested and working while i also hope that orderin process then will be running with secure orderingpages... when viewing the updated pictures please also recognize the comments beside....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Just added first view of the real populated Apple1RAMcard......
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Great work!!!
As I noted previously, I would like to order two completed sets of all boards and any other required components.
Thanks speedyG.
DC

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Couple questions for speedyG

1. How are the Apple 1 boards coming? Progress report for the curious and interested?
2. How do we know if we're on your "buy" list? I've expressed interest in purchasing but I have no idea if I'm "on the list".

As always, thanks for your dedication to the earliest of Apple's.
My Best,
macnoyd

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AF members,
hello macnoyd,

up to the moment there is no list of orders... i was collecting the mails and posting to calculate how many boards will be made with the first ( and after such great response - probably only ) run.... as explained in earlier posting to be able to calculate which precise price will result from the amount of orders.... and the bad news is that the echo was rather very silent.... the ugly thing is - because up till now there is less than 6 orders per card there will not be very much dropdown in price... ( i explained the dependency of price and amount of orders in a early posting here )- it would be unfair to treat this as real order unless the final price of each board is known....
- but of course i am still keeping the pm´s and postings of those, who claimed their interest in the cards and i will contact every member, that has claimed interest in the cards in the very moment i´m able to tell the precise final price of each card.... so to macnoyd : you have not missed anything... you will get email or pm in the very moment i will prepare the orders to the PCB manufacturer and then everybody will have 2 weeks from that very moment, when the pm is recieved to confirm his own order ( with the knowledge of the precise price of the card....

in most cases the cards will be the bare PCB´s with detailed construction manual as PDF with lots of pictures and explanations... i just posted an extract of such an example manual.... each card will have own manual similar to that example...

in some special cases i will offer parts along with the cards if that parts are difficult to get ( for example the slotexpansioncard may be ordered blank or populated with the connectors....( but without voltage stabilization, because that parts are easy to get and not everybody wants to populate that part to ... ) and in such a case of course the additional cost will be explained in a list too....

i´m nearly complete with testing of the cards and several minor changes have been added....

at the moment i´m running 3 tasks at the same time:
testing the cards
preparing the VCFe ( Vintage Computer Festival Europe )
and reengineering the Mountain Expansion Box ( in another thread running here )
not to talk about private tasks beside too.....

and as soon as the VCFe has passed by i also intend to publish here within the following weeks a detailed report on assembling a MIMEO and a Newton NTI ( with lot of pictures ) and set them besides eachother to enable the AF members to compare them....

next steps in this very task may be expected within the next 3 or 4 weeks.....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Thank you speedyG,

This was what I was hoping to hear.
Anyone out there in AppleFritter land interested in any of these should be speaking up now while the opportunity
exists. Like the CFFA, it ain't gonna get any cheaper down the road.

Pending the outcome and if it helps tip the price scale, I may be getting 2 sets Let's see how it goes.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AF members,
during the tests with the Apple1 ROMcard i have decided to expand the list of usable Eproms to the 2732.
This is caused by the fact that the 2732 contains 4 kByte and the space selectable for each socket is also 4kByte.
Another reason is that the Basic used in the Apple1 also requires 4kB. Instead of forcing the users to make
curious constuctions with 2 time 2716 it´s rather better selection to expand the EPROM list of usable Eproms and add
the A11 to the Sockettypselectionsocket and develop a 4th plug for the 2732.
I will update the views to the PCB and the other pictures in the interfacepage within the next 48 hours.
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AF-members,
today the films from componentside and solderingside of the updated Apple1ROMcard have been uploaded to the site,
same as the updated circuitplan and the update of the sockettypselectionplugs and the populationplan.
the new revision is slightly a little bit less high and less long ..... so everything has been compacted a little bit more.
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AFmembers,
resulting from the fact that the pages related to the APPLEBOX and the Apple-1 have expanded in amount, i have decided to relocate
them away from the /Elektronik directory and give them instead an own directory from the root af the site.
that will cleanup and shorten links to that pages....
the new location is:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/APPLEBOX/APPLE1/appleboxapple1Indexpage.htm

within the next 2 weeks i will also relocate the remaining pages of the APPLEBOX .....
this will be accompanied by the task of correcting links given here to ensure that pictures keep displayed and
links to documents will be revised and corrected....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello SpeedyG,

When will the 3 cards be available for the Apple 1? Any projected date?

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hello Macnoyd

at the moment the cards have in majority been tested with the MIMEO and partially with the Newton NTI. I have one Newton 1
that is nearly complete ( i`m just waiting for some of the 2504A shift registers from the USA, which should arrive within the next 10 days - and i expect the delivery of one CFFA for Apple-1 too within that period ).

So i expect the Newton1 to be completed within the next 2 weeks. Then in the next month i want to carry out all final tests and just also include now tests with a CFFA card too ( i want the CFFA to work without probelems in any of the 3 slots and without any "bad behavior" of any card to the CFFA - meaning the CFFA shall work without any trouble together with the RAMcard, the ROMcard, the Prototypecard as well as the slotexpansioncard and the CFFA or the ACI in any mix or any position.

I´m not a fan of making customers to be "unwanted and unpaid testing employees" like microsoft or other companies do....
the very moment that cards are released i want to be sure they have been tested under every condition .... and if any thing results from that tests, it will also be here published and explained....

If all Tests are succeeded successfully - and i expect that to happen after the tests have benn performed up to the stage now - then the final revision notes and information will be released here at AF in June and the ordering process and release should happen in July and shipping in August.

I hope you excuse the dalays caused by that till now but understand that i want to sell absolute safe items....

sincerely speedyG

Add: This means that each card has then been tested in both veriations ( with stabilization on the slotexpansioncard - or - with stabilizarion on the card itself ) and the prototypecard will be tested with some variration of a second PIA and /or a SIOchip and probably also some kind of "Gameport"-version .... that will also be documented here too
....and added in the Manuals that will be availiable for download for each card similar to the partial example issued for the ROMcard.... I guess you have allready taken a look there too.... but that stuff must also be written and illustrated....

and finally i am testing the ROMcard with different versions of ROM and different kinds of content ( the 4 kB version of a relocatable Apple-1 BASIC as well as a altered version of the expanded Version of BASIC ( 11 kB split on 3 EPROMS ) and also relocatable from the replica-1 as well as some simple games 4kB and some version of 16kB game splited to 4 Eproms....
and i want to also make attempt to write a Program for programming Eproms in the ROMcard as soon as the CFFA arrives, to enable the users to program own software to the various kinds of EPROM.....

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hi speedyG,

Llike Corey said, if its Apple I stuff, count me in as well.

A universal rom/ram card would be great, BASIC in ROM and an additional 16M of ram (4116's), sweet.

Rather than specifically BASIC in ROM perhaps a pair of 2716 or 2732 Sockets (then we can load BASIC or other home brew programs) as well as 8 x 4116 ram chips?

Just my 10c worth.

Cheers, Martin...

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

mnc1959 wrote:

Hi speedyG,

Like Corey said, if its Apple I stuff, count me in as well.
A universal rom/ram card would be great, BASIC in ROM ===> up to 4 x 2732 possible mixing 2708, 2716, 2732 possible...
and an additional 16M of ram (4116's), sweet ====> 2 rows of 4096 0r 4116 / mixing possible ==> up to 32kB
Rather than specifically BASIC in ROM perhaps a pair of 2716 or 2732 Sockets (then we can load BASIC or other home brew programs) as well as 8 x 4116 ram chips? see remarks above and answer below !
Cheers, Martin...

Hello mnc1959,

the questions and remarks above show to me that you have missed reading the earlier postings.....
a lot of info´s about the different stages of the developement have been posted here before
about the abilities of that cards..... and at:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/appleboxApple1expansions.htm
(an adress also mentioned in the beginning of this thread ) you may view the current stage
and current remarks ..... you will see a lot of the questions are answered and explained there and above....
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

Hi speedyG

yes you are correct I read a very early message in the thread and discovered late last night that the boards were mostly developed.

They look amazing and I cant wait to get my hands on them Smile

I would also be interested in 2 sets of boards as I'm building a Mimeo 1 and a Newton (NTI) board.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Cheers, Martin...

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards fot Mimeo/Apple1

2 sets here also please.

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AFmembers here...

i´m sad to claim that an unfortunate delay is to be expected....

as i have explained in earlier posting i have completed tests with the cards at all three relica´s ( MIMEO, Newton NTI and the Newton 1 ) together with all combinations and with the ACIcard. I have ordered the CFFA1 at the 29th of April and Rich Dreher has shipped that card at 6th of May to my location..... but unfortunatly that shipment seems to have been lost or stolen...

anyhow it havn´t arrived till today.... for that reason i have started a inquiry at german customs and for the German Post to detect the location of the shipment... under normal condition, it was supposed to arrive within a period of 4 to 5 weeks after shipment.... and i intended to complete the testings with all possible combinations of my cards with the CFFA1 before releasing the cards to the public to ensure that no unwanted interaction will happen in any kind of specific combination of the cards... and to be sure that the CFFA1 cooperates with my cards, even if it is inserted in the last expansion slot and the other cards inserted in the slots of the mainboard or in the slot closest to the mainboard with the CFFA1 "behind them"...

If no reply is given from customs or the German Post, i will be forced to order a second CFFA1 from Rich Dreher at the end of the now comming week ( at the end of this month ) .... that will cause a delay to the testing process of another 4 to 5 weeks, till that second shipment will arrive.... so i fear that i´m not able to complete the testing procedures before that card arrived and needing about 3 or four days of testing... resulting to the fact that final ordering seems not to be possible, before beginning or mid of August....

i´m not very happy about this delay - and i´m sorry for any kind of inconvenience caused by that delay....
but it was upmost important to keep you informed about this incident....

sincerely speedyG

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dsm
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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

29Jun13

SpeedyG,

I would like to request two Apple1 prototype cards when you place your order.

Thanks for your time.

Cheers,

dsm

dsm
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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

30Jun13

SpeedyG,

I would also like to request two Apple1 slot expansion backplanes when you place your order.

Thanks for your time.

Cheers,

dsm

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

Hello to all AFmembers...

finally yesterday i recieved 2 shipments from R&D....
the one sent nearly 2 1/2 months ago which i already thought to have been lost or stolen and the second order
placed and shipped 3 1/2 weeks ago as replacement ( this time by registrated express mail ) for the one i assumed to be lost....

it will surely remain mystery why that first shipment had been delayed for than 2 months at customs......
this is sure indication that german customs is to blame for ....
that first shipment was shipped by Rich Dreher 6th of May and left USA by plane at 8th of May and surely arrived at Frankfurt up till 10th of May and it has been delayed at customs till 17th of July ???!!!
this is surely a new poorness record on german customs....

well i better not blame to much... at least it hadn´t been stolen like assumed before....

Unfortunatly i´m now bound in a task that has fixed appointment at court, so i must delay testing till this court task
is completed ( resulting in a further delay of probably 1 to 1 1/2 weeks ) till i can complete testing of the cards in cooperation with the CFFA1.

So i expect the starting of collecting the real orders for the cards in about 2 weeks just right before the end of this month.
So please to all members wanting PCB´s out of this series keep this thread beginning in 2 weeks under survielance for the notification of the start of this ordering process.....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

Hi speedyG,

Its been some time since you posted about your Apple 1 expansion cards.

So i expect the starting of collecting the real orders for the cards in about 2 weeks just right before the end of this month.
So please to all members wanting PCB´s out of this series keep this thread beginning in 2 weeks under survielance for the notification of the start of this ordering process.....

i was wondering how development is going and if there is anything we as a community can do to help you?

Mnc1959

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

mnc1959 wrote:

Hi speedyG,

Its been some time since you posted about your Apple 1 expansion cards.

So i expect the starting of collecting the real orders for the cards in about 2 weeks just right before the end of this month.
So please to all members wanting PCB´s out of this series keep this thread beginning in 2 weeks under survielance for the notification of the start of this ordering process.....

i was wondering how development is going and if there is anything we as a community can do to help you?

Mnc1959

Hello Mnc1959 and to all other AF-members here,

well, fair questions and here some background informations for several reasons meeting together for the delays....:

in general you can call the delays to be caused by different reasons of limitations ...

first is health...
i´ve passed the 60th birthday a while ago and i had several years ago a very severe second heartstroke...
this limited very roughly my financial situation..... i´m not permitted anymore to work "regular" because i´m finally
taken off the employees list by the doctors.... after that second heartstroke i´m only left with some 55% of my
heartcapacity and the rest is scartissue.... that also forced me to immediatly stop all my sporting activities....
so several years ago i had to completely change my behaviot of life....

second reason to health is that i served duty in Nam in the end of the sixties and beginning of the seventies, before
i emigrated to Germany and after i performed my service - so you might claim my to be an "aged Vet" ... and that duty
gave me 10 years later in the 80´s several cases of cancer caused by Agent Orange ... well no matter i survived that too...

anyhow ... i must state, that i have to be very carefull with my health limitations today.... and i must keep care to stay within my limits....

at the other hand ( as third point ) this limits also caused limitations in my financial abilities .... to make it short:

per month i can´t afford more than 160 to 180 Euro for things besides basic spendings for life like food, telephon, travelling and other costs....

within that limitations i still am taking care of my former amount of Apple II series ( I started at the Apple II europlus in change from 79 to 80 and i continued with IIe and later with a IIe enhanced and finally continued with a IIGS ROM1 and stopped with the Apple Computers with the II GS Rom3 in the end of the 80´s.... and i still have them all...

I started with the Apple 1 replications in summer last year, when i ordered my first Mimeo and then while builing up that system i also started up with the development of the cards too..... and due to the fact that also other replications are in the market i also wanted the cards to be tested along with the other systems too.... so from August last year till April this year i also completed a Newton 1 and a Newton NTI and a second Mimeo later for "everydays work / use and having fun"...
while testing i also of course wanted to be sure, not to get in conflict with other popular cards - in the concrete case - the CFFA for the Apple 1. The first one i ordered in April was lost at German customs so i had to order a second one from Rich in May and it arrived in my place in end of June...
when that second order arrived in beginning of June..... and when i read the documentation and started the tests i got quite shocked.... that card does not only use it´s "regular slot adressing space" of 4 kB - but instead also demands another "hidden" adressing space from $9000 to $9FFF to besides the space of the slot adressing.... amount to total use of minimum of
8kB out of the adressing space... ( and that only if you switch off the other usage of space ) otherwise it will even occupy the total range of more then 32 kB .....

this crashed my total idea of the adressing area....
and it also will cause severe conflicts with all of my cards....

Just to repeat my primary idea of the use of adressing space:

$0000 to $0FFF reserved default to 1st Bank of Mainboard RAM
$1000 to $1FFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM on Mainboard and instead BASIC in EPROM on EPROM card
$2000 to $2FFF by my concept - reserved for 1st Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$3000 to $3FFF by my concept - reserved for 1st Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$4000 to $4FFF by my concept - reserved for 1st Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$5000 to $5FFF by my concept - reserved for 1st Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$6000 to $6FFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$7000 to $7FFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$8000 to $8FFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ( use of this area by CFFA1 can be turned off by switch )
$9000 to $9FFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ! This causes conflict with "hidden" use by CFFA1 !
................................this above listed area at $9000 to $9FFF can not be turned off by switch and allways keeps in use by CFFA1 !
$A000 to $AFFF by my concept - reserved for 2nd Bank of RAM with 16 kB on RAMcard ! This is "official" use of "slot adress" by CFFA1 !
$B000 to $BFFF by my concept - this was determined to be used with the EPROM card hosting for example game or assembler or editor
$C000 to $CFFF reserved default to ACI Casstte Interface
$D000 to $DFFF by my concept - this was determined to be used with the EPROM card hosting for example game or assembler or editor
$E000 to $EFFF ( often reserved for 2nd Bank of Mainboard RAM to keep BASIC ) by my concept - reserved for EPROM with BASIC
......... or instead of use for RAM from Mainboard this area starting at $E000 could also be used with battery buffered static RAM to contain BASIC
$F000 to $FFFF reserved default to system ROM

So up to the moment this conflicts have not been resolved yet....

- at the other hand in August this year Rich announced that he will open 3rd run of the CFFA3000...
and i have been waiting for nearly 1/2 year for the run for my Apple II series computers ( see listed above ) and there for archiving my endless bunch floppydisks...
so i ordered my 2 pieces in Speptember - but in fact my budget for September had been sceduled for other bills...
therefor i had to save my budgets for October nad November to pay that order.... which has been solved now...
and my next 2 budgets are also sceduled. for other bills ... so there won´t happen much in that next 2 months either...

but in fact i was very happy and amazed about the contribution from Dr. Wendel Sander about his Apple 1 peripherial cards and his "VMA trick"....
this makes me think that i can solve the problems that i have with my cards and the conflicts in adressing space....
in fact i´m still analyzing the way he made his cards work and thinking about the possibility if that kind
of "switched time usage" between cards and CPU might probably be adapted in my concept too.....

and if that is possible i also will have to ask wsander - if i may use his idea within my concept - due to the fact that he invented that "VMA trick"......

ao that´s explenation of the current situation.....

anyhow i also bear in mind another date: in the end of April 2014 the next VCFe ( Vintage Computer Festival Europe )
will be performing in Munich - and i want to get somehow at least one system with all cards running there....
( hopefully with CFFA1 and without conflict´s )....

so i´m still "on the track" and i´ll stay there till that points have been solved.....

i´m sorry for any inconvinience caused by the delays.... but i still have to remain also within my limits....

up till now i´ve just spent for the developments nearly 400 Euro only for my prototyp-PCBs....and because the
slotconnectors could not be ordered with less than 25 pieces i allready spent for that connectors nearly
another 280 Euros... for most guys that´s not much.... but for me it´s a hard task.... and i have never used any
kind of credits - and i don´t intend to start up with such habit at any time in future,,,, so i just have to
keep along with small but steady steps ahead....

thanks for the offer of support .... the only support i´ll ask for is to have some patience with me
and my limitations...

sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

SpeedG

It was my intent that the Apple 1 board design work I describe on my website be used freely so I have added a statement to that section of the web site placing the information in the public domain. I hope you can make good use of it.

wsander

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

wsander wrote:

SpeedG

It was my intent that the Apple 1 board design work I describe on my website be used freely so I have added a statement to that section of the web site placing the information in the public domain. I hope you can make good use of it.

wsander

hello wsander,

thank you very much for granting that permission for noncommercial usage....
at the moment i´m tied up with 2 other tasks, but i will turn back to this task within the next 2 weeks....
sincerely speedyG

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

Wendell and Speedy,

As far as I'm concerned...

You Guys' Rock!

Age, income, and medical conditions are always a factor in what you can do.
Don't let anyone push you farther than you can go.
Just having the two of you here is cause for joy.
Just my two cents.

Steven Smile

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Re: Interest in 3 Expansion Cards for Mimeo/Apple1

I concur 100%.

The work you two guys are doing is above and beyond the call of duty.

ABSOLUTELY NO pressure, they are ready when they are ready.

Thanks and Cheers, Martin...