Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

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Eudimorphodon's picture
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A while back (better part of a year ago?) I posted about having a IIgs with what appears to be a blown keyboard controller. (And is still blown.) This weekend I was given another IIgs (also a "Woz Edition", I assume it's ROM01, and again just the system unit) which I have yet to power up. Here's the situation:

On the previous GS I used an Apple Extended Keyboard II paired with the older square-edged mouse, both of which were scrounged second hand. I was worried that one of those devices may have blown up the controller in said GS, since *supposedly* it had been tested before it was given to me. (I do stress "supposedly", I actually got conflicting stories about that.) However, a friend with a Macintosh SE in his garage which was missing input devices volunteered to risk testing them, and said SE works fine with them attached. This would seem to me fair evidence that the keyboard and mouse are both fine. So... before I ask for them back, here's the question:

Is the Extended Keyboard II actually compatible with the Apple IIgs?

I can't find anything saying it isn't but I don't really want to blow up another one out of ignorance. Thanks.

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speedyG's picture
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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

The IIGS and the early Macs have used same definitions on the so called "ADB"devices..
both had same pinouts and same speed....
it started later with the Mac SI that changes occured to the specs of the ADB devices that they started to "speed" them up....to higher speed than 9600 Baud. In the first specs of the IIGS and the early Macs they both have been operating at 9600 Bd. Only difference had been at the level of the keyboard decoder, so that some special keys passed over other bytes to the computer, resulting to the fact that some kays won´t work or act like other keys.....
but if the computer gets other codes it does not blast anything - it just remains at the status not to understand or misintertret some of the bytecode....
speedyG

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Uhm... okay?

And actually, I stand corrected and need to restate the question; the keyboard I have isn't an AEKII, it's the "AppleDesign Keyboard (M2980)". (The lightweight curvy one. I realized after doing an image search that AEKII didn't look right.) So that said:

Does anyone here use an M2980 on an Apple IIgs? (Or seen it done successfully?)

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

The AppleDesign keyboard is NOT 100% compatible with the Apple IIGS.

I recommend you get an original IIGS KB, or a Keyboard II. If space is not a factor and you like numeric keypads, the Extended Keyboard or Extended Keyboard II will also work.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Super. Is it not compatible in a "some software might not act right" way or "you're going to blow it up" way?

I'll have to see what I can find for an alternative. That's annoying.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

The ADB controller on the ROM 3 IIgs can light up the Extended keyboard's LEDs for caps lock and so on.

The Apple Design keyboard can be used with the IIgs, but operation of the caps lock key is a bit funny.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

As eluded to earlier, there is the original ADB and a rev 2. They are electrically the same. The AppleDesign won't/shouldn't blow up your IIGS but you can expect some erratic behavior or limited function since it's a ADB2 device.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Okay.

Since the keyboard works with the Mac SE I may end up resorting to temporarily using it with the GS until I can find another model *somewhere*; I checked Weirdstuff yesterday, which in the past reliably had a pile of ADB keyboards in the back, and came up dry. I guess we've reached the era where no one's throwing them out anymore.

I suppose if it does nuke the keyboard controller in this one, well, I will have learned some sort of lesson. Thanks.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

As others mentioned, use the ADB keyboard that shipped with the GS. The newer ones don't work right.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

It would help if there were a complete list of models for both keyboards and mice and their compatibility with the iigs plus the behavior of keyboards and mice that were not designed for the gs.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

The problem with the idea to list the behaviour won´t wotk.
The old devices have been using 9600 baud for transmission.
The newer ones have changed to 19200 Baud.
So if you hang up a devive that sends 19200 Baud to a device that only is able to recives 9600 Baud
the behaviour is not predictable..... you might simulate such behaviour by experiment with ADT:
set the transmitting side to 19200 and the recieving side to 9600 Baud and then try to transmit a textfile.....
same may also be simuleted with any Modem-program like Xtalk, Crosstalk or Proterm.
If the setup is set that way, that both sides operate in fixed speed mode without speed detection,
then the recieved file will contain unpredictable content with no relation to the sent material....
the only difference is the at keyboards the results might get slightly better,
because it´s transmitting only one letter at time with larger "resting time" betweeen the 2 keypresses.

So only possible thing will be a compatibility listing. If i remember correct something like that has been made
in the end ot the 80´s by several user groups and published in user group technotes.... at least here in Germany...
i´d have to remember searching for that list, due to the fact that the technotes of the German user groups ( several
hundreds of pages in 2 binders ) is in my storage.

speedyG

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Well, there will be a lot of confusion on this subject since the apple ii faq lists all keyboards mentioned here as being a replacement keyboard for the original gs keyboard:

http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/faqs/Csa2KBPADJS.html#008

008- My stock GS keyboard has been acting flaky; and, now
I'm looking for a GS keyboard replacement.
What's available?

Work with an Apple IIgs

Apple ADB Keyboards I and II
AppleDesign Keyboard (approx. price: $85)
Apple Extended Keyboard (original)
Apple Extended Keyboard II (approx. price: $155)
Adesso 105 Extended Keyboard (approx. price: $80)
Adesso 102 Extended Keyboard w/ Trackball [Trackball does NOT work]
(approx. price: $100)
AlphaSmart Pro ADB keyboard (approx. price: $270 )
AlphaSmart 2000-3000 (approx. price: $200-$230)
Arriva Extended (approx. price: $40)
Datadesk Lil�BigBoard (approx. price: $60)
Interex Mac-105A Extended (approx. price: $55)
Key Tronic MacPro Plus (approx. price: $130)
OptiMac Extended Keyboard
PowerUser 105E Extended Keyboard (approx. price: $60)
SIIG, Inc MacTouch Model 1905 (approx. price: $100.00)
SIIG, TrueTouch [ROM 03 only]
Sun OmniMac Ultra [extended, ADB type]
Suntouch ADB Extended Keyboard (approx. price: $75)
VividKey Extended Keyboard (approx. price: $60)

Do not work with an Apple IIgs

Apple Adjustable Keyboard
MacALLY Peripherals Extended Keyboard
MicroSpeed Keyboard Deluxe MAC

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

speedyG wrote:

The problem with the idea to list the behaviour won´t wotk.
The old devices have been using 9600 baud for transmission.
The newer ones have changed to 19200 Baud.

(blawblawblaw)

Look, I'm sure you're the greatest Apple genius in the world and we should totally marvel at your concise and completely readable technical explanations of how anything II-related works, but... maybe, in just this one case, would you please cite a reference? You're blithering about serial ports, but, here:

The ADB timing sections in the Apple IIgs Hardware reference, page 136 agree very closely with the same in the Apple Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware manual here, page 319. The only difference between the two seems to be that they appear to have reduced the acceptable amount of "slop" in the spec in the Macintosh manual; some of the values say, for instance "+/- 3%" verses more forgiving ranges in the GS manual. (That actually seems to suggest that a IIgs keyboard would be more likely to cause issues with a Macintosh than vice versa?)

There isn't a single thing in either about "9600 baud" or "19200" baud or whatever you're trying to explain here.(*) Are you just making things up, or do you know that newer keyboards don't work at all with IIgses? Pretty much all Googling this question is turning up is warnings that you might see some "quirks" and the caps lock lights won't work. If there was an unresolvable baud-rate mismatch they wouldn't work at all, I'd think?

(*) For the record, if you do the math the optimal ~100microsecond bit-cell time listed in both documents roughly equals 9600 baud, which has me wondering where the heck the "125kbit/s maximum" bandwidth claimed on Wikipedia's ADB page comes from. But if we go ahead and pretend that's actually correct, well, if the Apple design keyboard "changed to 19200 baud" (again, documentation? link?) and only worked at that speed would it not by consequence fail to work with the Macintosh SE that it A: seems to work just grand with, and is B: specifically covered by that "Apple Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware"? Because it sure seems to work on that SE.

Anyway. Again, thank everyone for the input. I do have some feelers out for a "more correct" keyboard, but so far I'm getting the distinct impression that the people who have them want them more than I do.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Eudimorphodon wrote:
speedyG wrote:

The problem with the idea to list the behaviour won´t wotk.
The old devices have been using 9600 baud for transmission.
The newer ones have changed to 19200 Baud.
(blawblawblaw)

Look, I'm sure you're the greatest Apple genius in the world and we should totally marvel at your concise and completely readable technical explanations of how anything II-related works, but... maybe, in just this one case, would you please cite a reference? You're blithering about serial ports, but, here:
There isn't a single thing in either about "9600 baud" or "19200" baud or whatever you're trying to explain here.(*) Are you just making things up, or do you know that newer keyboards don't work at all with IIgses? Pretty much all Googling this question is turning up is warnings that you might see some "quirks" and the caps lock lights won't work. If there was an unresolvable baud-rate mismatch they wouldn't work at all, I'd think?
(*) For the record, if you do the math the optimal ~100microsecond bit-cell time listed in both documents roughly equals 9600 baud, which has me wondering where the heck the "125kbit/s maximum" bandwidth claimed on Wikipedia's ADB page comes from. But if we go ahead and pretend that's actually correct, well, if the Apple design keyboard "changed to 19200 baud" (again, documentation? link?) and only worked at that speed would it not by consequence fail to work with the Macintosh SE that it A: seems to work just grand with, and is B: specifically covered by that "Apple Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware"? Because it sure seems to work on that SE.

Hello Eudimorphodon,
I´ve been missing your sarcarm for so long time.... so it´s pleasure to recognize that your not offline and still have confidence in your knowledge ....
but first: i don´t jump on your demand up to my storage to seach immediatly for the paperwork in the technotes....
but you might be assured / expect that this posting will get it´s fitting reply within next 2 weeks, when i enter the storage in it´s regular period... i will then put papers up here for everybody to view.... hope you just will be able to stand up my sarcasm and swallow the reply....
up till then...
sincerely yours speedyG

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

I have in my possession all the stuff mentioned here. I will do some testing and get back to you guys.

Speedy, most of the time, I find it hard to understand your usage of the word, "demand". It probably works fine in deutsch, but in English, I am confused.

Ich verstehe sie nicht.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

speedyG wrote:

but first: i don´t jump on your demand up to my storage to seach immediatly for the paperwork in the technotes....
but you might be assured / expect that this posting will get it´s fitting reply within next 2 weeks, when i enter the storage in it´s regular period... i will then put papers up here for everybody to view.... hope you just will be able to stand up my sarcasm and swallow the reply....

Believe me, I'm completely looking forward to your thoroughly documented and independantly verifiable description of how whatever incompatibility there may be between later ADB keyboards and the Apple IIgs is *specifically due to different baud rates*. (And not, say, the inability of the IIgs to recognize the full set of scancodes returned by the later boards or other similar high-level-protocol-related differences.)

Quote:

the only difference is the at keyboards the results might get slightly better,
because it´s transmitting only one letter at time with larger "resting time" betweeen the 2 keypresses.

Do you actually understand how asynchronous UARTs work? To quote Wikipedia (who's description is as good as any:)

"Communicating UARTs usually have no shared timing system apart from the communication signal. Typically, UARTs resynchronize their internal clocks on each change of the data line that is not considered a spurious pulse. Obtaining timing information in this manner, they reliably receive when the transmitter is sending at a slightly different speed than it should. Simplistic UARTs do not do this, instead they resynchronize on the falling edge of the start bit only, and then read the center of each expected data bit, and this system works if the broadcast data rate is accurate enough to allow the stop bits to be sampled reliably."

Most UARTs specify that they'll tolerate a speed mismatch on the order of 2.5-4%. Not 50/100%. I know I've never seen a serial connection (lacking an autodetection feature) work *at all* with the speed off by that much, *every single character will be garbage*. Granted ADB doesn't actually use a discrete UART, it seems to be bit-banged with pretty minimal hardware and, I dunno, perhaps it's possible for Macs to override the boot-time code for the ADB controller with a version that bit-bangs it at a higher speed (which would seem to be the only way to *get* more than about 9600 baud out of ADB based on the 100microsecond bit cell timing), the IIgs' can't/won't and, finally, the Apple Design Keyboard *requires* this be done to function properly, but where is your *documentation* for this? (Note: Wild speculation from a user group member doesn't count as documentation.)

Seriously, I'm all ears, educate me.

(Edit:

USB: Transfer Speed Compared to Other Technologies:

Quote:

Technology / Theoretical Maximum Throughput
Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) / 0.01 Mbps or 10 Kbps

10Kbps jives with an optimal 100 microsecond bit cell time, per the documentation in the IIgs and Macintosh hardware reference guides cited and is distinctly *not* the 19.2Kbps you're claiming.

But again, whatever, awaiting your proof.)

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Eudimorphodon, I'd put my betting money on Speedy to be correct on this. One thing I have learned recently is that even the best general can lose a battle if he is not given the correct information on the movements of the enemy.

You may be using sources that are correct concerning theory, but Speedy claims that he's got papers that describe the exact reason why things are the way they are and quite frankly, I would be willing to hear him out if I were you.

You are asking a question, he answered it.

I can only do my part by taking the actual keyboards in question and testing them with a iigs. I have them all. I will be testing a rom 01 and a rom 03 iigs.

If there is any strange behavior, you can be sure that I will describe it in this thread.

I only wish I had Speedy's technical skills so that I can do what he does, but when I was young, I was given the opportunity to learn it and I declined. I regret that choice.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

insanitor wrote:

You may be using sources that are correct concerning theory, but Speedy claims that he's got papers that describe the exact reason why things are the way they are and quite frankly, I would be willing to hear him out if I were you.

If he can document his answer, specifically that *the mechanism behind the behavior is what he claims it is* then I suppose I owe him some sort of an apology, however:

Quote:

You are asking a question, he answered it.

Yes. And he is proposing an answer which is "novel" compared to every other piece of information out there with absolutely no documentation.

(Perhaps he's half-right in that there's some protocol-related issue that presents itself as a timing mismatch, IE, perhaps the newer keyboards send keycodes at the same bitrate but with less delay between them than the older keyboards and that confuses the IIgs, but he's *quite specifically* claiming that the newer boards send at a "higher baud rate", there is *zero*, repeat, *zero* documentation for that, and therefore I have a problem with the explanation...

Well, that and his odius assumption/attitude that everyone who asks a question, particularly if it's one he may have heard once before in his life, is both lazy and stupid, as evidenced in quite a few other threads. But I suppose that's besides the point and I'll try to be charitable and chalk it up to a language barrier. If he knows for a fact that the newer keyboards won't work properly with a IIgs but is fuzzy on the "why" he could simply state that without tacking on a condescending "you don't know what mismatched baud rates means" speech to back up his possibly-misremembered answer.

I have no doubt whatsoever that SpeedyG is "smart" and has much useful knowledge at his disposal, all I'd suggest is he might try working some humility into his approach to dispensing it.)

Quote:

I can only do my part by taking the actual keyboards in question and testing them with a iigs. I have them all. I will be testing a rom 01 and a rom 03 iigs.

I appreciate that, and if you do find in your experimentation that the keyboard definitively doesn't work then perhaps someone should attempt to update the relevent Apple II FAQs. Thank you.

(Again, circling back to the very beginning, what prompted this thread was concern that perhaps the keyboard I have, which again seems to work just fine on a Mac SE, might have somehow killed another IIgs' keyboard controller due to some known-but-poorly-documented electrical incompatibility. I got two different stories from the person who gave me that unit regarding whether they'd actually tested it or not and it's *probably* just a red herring, I was just hoping someone out there could say "yeah, I've used those two things together and the magic smoke did/did not come out".)

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

The problem here is very easy to describe. You think that just because there is a current absence of information, that such information does not exist because you could not find it.

That is equivalent to saying that just because nobody around you wins the lottery, and you don't win the lottery, therefore nobody ever wins the lottery.

This is classified as a non sequitur.

Think about it.

Have some patience, and see what he comes up with. As far as I know, Speedy has no reason to lie, and I have no reason to believe that he's got a memory problem either.

He helps those in this forum and that requires things/traits that are contrary to what you're accusing him of.

Plus, at the same time when you're asking for humility on his part, you're doing no better.

Here's some information on people:

When someone is very experienced, and someone else who is not starts to stir up trouble by challenging experience and truth, you'll NEVER get a positive response.

It is the mark of a good student, but a bad show of character. It is diplomacy and how you ask questions that will get you what you want!

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

I think Eudi and Speedy are both big boys and don't need anyone else stirring the pot.

Let's stick to the technical side of this discussion, please.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

eeun wrote:

I think Eudi and Speedy are both big boys and don't need anyone else stirring the pot.

Let's stick to the technical side of this discussion, please.

On the technical side, there is nothing more to be said.

As for stirring up he pot, how else will this end up?

If there is no possibility of this being resolved for the moment between them, then maybe it can be done with me.

I can't find the logic in your response.

Is there some extra information that you have?

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

I likewise trust SpeedyG's ability to speak for himself.

My position, I hope, is relatively clear: When someone says something that's counter to the available documentation I'm disinclined to believe it without evidence. SpeedyG specifically claims:

"The old devices have been using 9600 baud for transmission.
The newer ones have changed to 19200 Baud."

That is exactly the sort of thing that should be documented somewhere. I just want to know where. I sure can't find an ounce of evidence for it.

Perhaps I should have used slightly nicer language in redirecting that question to him but there is something about *his* use of language that rubs me the wrong way. I'll try really hard to stop reflecting.

(If your position is that I should bow and grovel in front of SpeedyG and thank him every time he dispenses his wisdom even when it doesn't make any apparent sense and is peppered with "newbie" insinuations, well, I don't think that's going to happen. I'm sorry.)

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

I think you're confusing humility for diplomacy.

I find it just as strange that when you ask a question and then are given an answer, you don't believe the answer just because you could not find any supporting evidence for it.

We're talking about 30 year old computers here. It's reasonable to assume that there is information that may be difficult to find, but not impossible.

Difficulty does not imply impossibility any more than possibility implies a guarantee.

The price one must pay for greatness is pride. The price you pay for humility is truth. The price you pay for diplomacy is friendship, patience and understanding.

I wish you guys luck in resolving this. If speedy gets the documentation and if it says what he says it will say, then you're going to owe him an engraved and gift wrapped apology.

God knows what Speedy will owe if does not deliver. The burden of proof seems to be on him.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

insanitor wrote:

The price one must pay for greatness is pride. The price you pay for humility is truth. The price you pay for diplomacy is friendship, patience and understanding.

And the price one must pay for a cup of coffee is about a buck, unless you're at Starbucks.

SpeedyG doesn't seem to believe much in the whole diplomacy, patience, or understanding thing, why are you lecturing me?

Anyway. If any interesting *technical* discussion comes along I'll be happy to read it, otherwise I think this thread is pretty much done. Many apologies for opening it.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

You need not apologize for opening it, but maybe you should for saying this:

speedyG wrote:

The problem with the idea to list the behaviour won´t wotk.
The old devices have been using 9600 baud for transmission.
The newer ones have changed to 19200 Baud.

Eudimorphodon wrote:

(blawblawblaw)

Eudimorphodon wrote:

Look, I'm sure you're the greatest Apple genius in the world and we should totally marvel at your concise and completely readable technical explanations of how anything II-related works, but... maybe, in just this one case, would you please cite a reference? You're blithering about serial ports...

He was right for using the word sarcasm when he read this response.

Blithering?

Here's the definition for that word:

Blithering - senselessly talkative, babbling; used chiefly as an intensive to express annoyance or contempt.

Gee, I wonder why he would react negatively to that response...

That's sarcasm too.

In any case, when the time comes for me to do my iigs testing, I will post the results here. I also really need to know the answer to this question since I will be selling the iigs with keyboards other than the original iigs keyboard. If there are any problems I will post those also.

One way or another, this question will be answered in it's entirety even if I am the only one left who can do it. It may take some time, since I have to redo retrobrite with all my apple stuff due to extreme yellowing. I work very slowly since constant or fast work is not possible for me.

I have two m2980 keyboards and three original iigs keyboards and two rom 03 iigs computers and three rom 01 iigs computers.

I also have two other different models of ADB keyboartds that I will test with the iigs and if I somehow blow up my computers then so be it.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

I've been using one for years with no problem, Woz edition upgraded from Rom0 to a ROM 01.
I prefer this M2980 keyboard.

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Just to bring some closure to this thread...

I *finally, two months later, got my M2980 back and got around to trying the new IIgs. Keyboard works fine. The caps lock light doesn't work, so there's no indication of whether Caps is engaged or not, but other than that it seems just dandy. So I guess it doesn't run at 19200 baud instead of 9600 or whatever.

Somewhat ironically, I did discover when trying to boot GS OS over an Appletalk connection (supplied by an A2SERVER/Netatalk vi a Farallon bridge) that the new GS seems to have some bad extended RAM; It kept dropping to the debugger claiming it had hit a BRK early in the boot process and would panic with a slew of beeps shortly after displaying the graphical desktop if you kept telling the debugger to "go". On a hunch I swapped RAM cards with my other unit with the dead keyboard controller and everything was hunky dory after that. After netbooting GS OS I was able to use ASIMOV to write a copy of "Oregon Trail" to a A9M0106 drive borrowed from the Mac 512k setup, and that boots fine as well.

The *one* remaining flaw (so far) is the power light doesn't light up. I imagine I can live with that.

(Edit: I stand corrected. The power light does work, the green LED is just dim enough it's essentially impossible to see in a sunlit room, even if you try to shade it. Which I'm fine with; it's certainly less objectionable than the eyeball-searing blue LEDs that are all the rage now.)

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Glad to hear that the Keyboard and one of your ][gs' is working...

I bought some Keyboards from Mac Shack a few years ago..

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Re: Really stupid Apple IIgs keyboard compatibility question

Thanks, I'm glad I finally got something of a happy ending (or beginnning) out of it. In the end I suppose it's sort of funny that I had to use a piece from the first one to get the second one completely going. The second one *was* tested before I got it but I think they tested it by booting a IIe-mode program on it, which undoubedly ignored the card RAM.

(One of these years I'll have to make a token effort at re-capping and otherwise going through the sick board to see if it's really unsalvagable or if there might be some fixable problem that's making the keyboard controller act up rather than the controller actually being dead. It *almost* works...)

I do have to note how impressed I am with the A2SERVER setup and the fact that you can actually network boot such an old machine. (I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that network booting sans floppy isn't supported on any Macintosh prior to the PCI Powermacs?) Support for that is hit-and-miss *today* and of course back in the 80's that was a really obscure feature. Undoubtedly I'll find an excuse to use ADTPro instead for something eventually, but the network boot so far works for disk transfer and is a really neat way to play with GS/OS without having to install it on a mass storage device I don't have.

Next thing on the list I need to keep an eye out for is a 5 1/4 inch drive, for self-booters that don't have 3.5 inch versions...