Found, IIsi, SE SE/30 Daystar and Ethernet adapter

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tt
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Re: snif, snif

dankephoto wrote:

Well, I may be crying prematurely, but I bet that's what I'll get with my 'new' SE/x, an SE/30 PowerCache, not a Universal PowerCache w/adapter.

I don't follow. There's another version of the PowerCache just for the SE/30?

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Re: Offer to help

tt wrote:

I wonder if my 040 needs a fan at its stock 40MHz speed. It does get somewhat hot. And with the IIci adapter, the heatsink is pointed downward, which isn't too helpful for convection. Tyler, what ever happened to your project to overclock the motherboard?

My project hasn't gotten off the ground yet. I need to find an SE/30 for a reasonable price. I'm hoping someone else might try it, though, since I've been yelling hither and yon about it on the classic mac intarweb.

I'm more interested in overclocking the motherboard for the purpose of increasing Turbo040 performance, but I guess if we could get up as high as 33 or 40MHz, it might make it so that some people wouldn't need to buy upgrade cards at all!

I've got a fan on my Turbo040 right now. It's a 40MHz card, but it's only got a 33MHz rated 68040 on it, so it's overclocked by about 25% right now and it does run pretty hot. In order to try overclocking it to 48 (hoping for 50, but I lost my 25Mhz xtal) I'm going to have to source a 40Mhz rated 68040, which I think I've got a lead on already...

I'd highly recommend adding a fan to a 40Mhz Turbo040 in an SE/30, especially if the chip is only rated to 33Mhz.

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That would be cool, an SE/30

That would be cool, an SE/30 specific accelerator. they are longer, but narrower than the ones for the IIsi, but electrically similar.

that wouldn't be the best accelerator, though. the best would be the Sonnet Allegro, which plugs into the CPU socket in place of the 030 CPU. Note, however, that not all boards are socketed, in which case you could take your SE/30 board to any guy who repairs cellphones and ask him to solder either a socket or the allegro in place of the original CPU.

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Re: Offer to help
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A guy I was talking to runs h

A guy I was talking to runs his Turbo 040 at 50MHz by getting a replacement oscillator component and switching it with the one on board (it is removable). Apparently it runs fine.. but this is in a IIx. SE/30 might be a whole new kettle of fish.

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Re: A guy I was talking to runs h

Kreats wrote:

...switching it with the one on board (it is removable).

That's not really a fair description... it's removable if you can desolder the factory one and solder in a socket. It wasn't too hard for me, but for some it's rather difficult.

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040 Clock Speed

TylerS wrote:

I've got a fan on my Turbo040 right now. It's a 40MHz card, but it's only got a 33MHz rated 68040 on it, so it's overclocked by about 25% right now and it does run pretty hot. In order to try overclocking it to 48 (hoping for 50, but I lost my 25Mhz xtal) I'm going to have to source a 40Mhz rated 68040, which I think I've got a lead on already...

Just checking here, but a 40MHz rated Turbo 040 should have a 20MHz crystal right? Could you put in a 50MHz 040 with a 25MHz crystal? Does this screw-up the timing with the cache?

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Re: 040 Clock Speed

tt wrote:

Just checking here, but a 40MHz rated Turbo 040 should have a 20MHz crystal right? Could you put in a 50MHz 040 with a 25MHz crystal? Does this screw-up the timing with the cache?

Yep, 40Mhz Turbo040 == 20Mhz xtal on board. There's no such thing as a 50Mhz 68040--they only came rated as high as 40. Hopefully, I'll have a 40Mhz chip soon, so I'll be able to tell you if just swapping in a 25Mhz xtal is enough to get 50Mhz.

I've got some little heatsinks for the cache RAM and a big VGA cooler for the 68040, I'm thinking that'll help keep things stable.

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Daystar Made an SE/30 68030 Socketed Accelerator

I've seen the Sonnet Allegro mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

Back in the early (very early) 90s Daystar sold an upgrade that plugged into the CPU socket on the SE/30. I remember seeing one at CompuAdd's Back Dock Sale (going out of business) back around '92. I'm sure it predated the Sonnet offering. That was the way of things. Daystar innovated. Sonnet followed. Sonnet was cheaper, but less compatible. Daystar had way better engineering. Sadly, which company is still around...

Anyway, so one could also keep a look-out for the Daystar upgrade that goes directly into the CPU socket.

Another possibility would be to reverse engineer the Daystar IIcx adapter for PowerCache and Turbo040. That adapter plugs into the IIcx CPU socket. It won't physically fit in the SE/30, but it should work electrically, so if one could reverse engineer it and reproduce it on a board sized for the SE/30...

That would put a CPU upgrade in the SE/30 and leave the PDS slot free for other expansion.

I believe that the IIcx adapter is more common than the SE/30 upgrade that plugged into the 68030 socket. Shreve sold a bunch of them for $1 when they were "going out of business".

I have one of the IIx adapters and I sent one to Gamba (who has gone silent). I'm not sure if the IIx adapter would be electrically compatible with the SE/30 the way the IIcx should be. Probably...

Daystar sold a truly bewildering array of well-engineered upgrades. BTW, I agree with a later poster, that the image in the original poster's message is a cache card/FPU card with dual PDS pass-through sockets. Plugging a PowerCache or Turbo040 into the slots on that card would be as bad as plugging a PowerCache or Turbo040 directly into a IIsi or SE/30 PDS slot.

There are also adapters to put the PowerCache/Turbo040 into an LC PDS slot (which is wierd since the slot is only 16 bits wide). And there was another upgrade called the Value040 which is basically a Turbo040 that plugs directly into the LC PDS slot.

There were three variables to the models of the Turbo040. The Turbo040i was the model that lacked the FPU (used the 68LC040 chip). If you replace the 68LC040 with a full 68040 on the Turbo040 then you need to update the firmware on the card or you'll get freezes. At least, that's my experience.

The second variable is simply clock speed. My experience is that even the 25MHz Turbo040 overclocks to 40MHz without any real problems. This was reported long before I tried it, here: http://homepage.mac.com/schrier/mhz.html

The third variable is model. There were two major versions of the Turbo040. The first was built with a double handful of small GAL chips and has a socket on the back for the FastCache 128K cache daughterboard. The later version of the Turbo040 is based on a single large ASIC (big square chip) and a small handful of GALs and has the 128K cache soldered down. There is no daughterboard connector on the later version. I imagine it would be much harder to fit the earlier Turbo040 in the SE/30 than the later one, because the earlier model is so much thicker with the cache board attached.

If you're purchasing one of the early model Turbo040s, check with the seller to see if the cache board is included. Sometimes you can see the attached daughter board in a photo, but if its a square-on front view you won't be able to tell. The cache board is very very hard to find too. I suspect a bunch of them get destroyed because folks don't know what this obscure part is.

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re: Daystar Made an SE/30 68030 Socketed Accelerator

Wow trag! What an excellent post!

As for my own recently purchased "SE/30 with PowerCache" - it just arrived. It is equipped with the upgrade trag mentions above, a 50MHz "SE/30 PowerCache" which plugs into the CPU socket. It also has a RasterOps ColorBoard 264/SE30 in the PDS slot, which the manual says'll do up-to 24 bit at 640x480.

I also tend to agree with trag about the OP's card (now also mine), it just smells like a combo cache/dual-PDS card.

I'll have pics of both Daystar bits up ASAP.

Grrrrrrr . . . dammit! I want to put a T601 in an SE/x and I'm no closer than I was before this buying spree! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

dan k

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030 sockets the same?

Sorry to bump an old thread -

I've seen a few 030 socket upgrades and adapters on evilbay for other machines. Is not an 030 socket an 030 socket whichever way you slice it? IE would not an 030 socket device made for any other machine work in an SE/30?

Oh - and how different is an 020 socket?

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PDS slot flavours

A quick stab on the subject. Others are certain to correct me. All from memory, so I will be wrong on occasions.

II, IIcx, IIx: No PDS slot. Daystar and others produced accelerators that fitted into the cpu socket for a while. For Macs that did not have a cpu socket, the logic board could be returned to the accelerator manufacturer to have one fitted.

SE/30 and IIsi: Physically identical slots. Whilst the machines have only one PDS slot, the logic board has an addressing structure for PDS and can work with more than one PDS card. The IIsi has logic board support for a NuBus slot adapter. I've never read any definitive info on whether this card will work in an SE/30 (the pmu would need to be removed, at least). Most PDS cards work in both models. However the Macs have different clock speeds so a few cards may be machine specific.

IIci cache slot: The IIci cache slot design is also used on other 68030 Macs (the IIvi and IIvx come to mind, but there may be others). The slot is physically identical to SE/30 and IIsi but different at the signal level. Hence the adapters that are required to use a IIci cache slot card in earlier models. In theory, installing a IIci cache card in an SE/30 might kill the logic board or accelerator, but most people who make the mistake get away with it. The IIci was such a good fundamental design that third party developers produced many accelerators. Daystar worked with Apple to make PPC 601 accelerators for the IIci cache slot and for 68040 Macs. The IIci PPC 601 card has its own set of official Apple ROMs. I have not read a reliable report of the PPC 601 card working in an SE/30.

First generation LC PDS: The LC family have their own versions of PDS slots. To my knowledge, there are no adapters that allow use of LC PDS cards from other families. The first LC had a 68020 processor and used a 16 bit PDS slot implementation. All of the Mac II-style PDS sockets above are 32 bit. The LC PDS slot was also used in the LCII which used 16 bit memory addressing. There were a few nifty LC PDS cards -- the Apple IIe workstation card, loads of ethernet, a few high res graphics cards and video image grabbers. Some cards designed for the first generation LC PDS slot do not work in later models when 32 bit memory addressing is enabled.

Second generation LC PDS: Second generation LC PDS arrived with the LCIII, a true 32 bit Mac. The physical slot is in two segments so that a later Mac can use a first generation LC PDS card. The same trick was used in the PC world for 8 bit and 16 bit ISA cards, and a few years later for VL-BUS cards. The second generation LC PDS slot lived for years and can be found on early consumer PowerMacs. Most second generation cards will not work in a first generation slot.

68040 and PPC PDS: another day or another author.

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020/030 SOCKET upgrades not PDS

I'm talking about the CPU socket itself, not the PDS socket. I've already read all there is to read on the PDS sockets Smile. My question relates to taking a CPU socket upgrade intended for another II series machine, and using it in a (socketed) SE/30 motherboard. I have a line on one intended for a 68020 Mac II, possibly with drivers.

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And for those not in the know

And for those not in the know, there were both socketed and soldered SE/30 mobos. I'll have to dig mine out some day and see if there's a part number difference.

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Let me spare you the trouble

Logic board with CPU socket and plastic RAM clips: 820-0260-A (1989).

Logic board with soldered-in CPU and plastic RAM clips: 820-0260-A (1989).

I have two other boards, one of each, but with metal RAM clips. They are well buried in SE/30s, which are too shy to let me look at their intimates at the moment.

de

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Software question

hey there, how's it going? Been a mac user for years and just came across an SE30 here at Indiana University's Excess and Salvage.. I bought it for a whole 30 bucks, cept I have no software, keyboard, mouse, etc etc... I saw you said you'd have some software for it, what do you have available? I would be willing to pay for the floppys and also the postage.... Also would you know how to network the SE30, or is there a way of attaching a cdrom or external something so that I can print? I have a networked laser printer and I'd love to use the SE30 for my PhD research and other typing needs...

Thanks!
JP Avila

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SE/30 Mods and Other Photos

My SE/30 Flickr photos here.

I highly recommend the DiiMO accelerator for the SE/30. And yes, I also own a 40MHz Daystar Turbo 040 and a TS Adapter, so I know the difference.

And while many of my photos show my secondary PSU for powering an internal hard drive separately from the stock PSU, I still recommend dropping the HD into an external zero footprint case (which sits under the Mac seamlessly) so as to reduce the amount of heat within the machine.