MDD Power Supply Conversion to Digital Audio - Help Needed

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alk's picture
alk
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Alright, so I've made pretty significant progress in this hack.

I've dropped a DA board into a highly modified PowerMac 8600 tower case, picked up a QuickSilver 933 processor, and re-wired an MDD power supply to match the DA G4 motherboard as per XLR8 Your Mac and http://www.outofspec.com/frankenmac/wire.shtml.

I know the DA board works because I ran it in my DA G4 case (with DA G4 PSU) after I bought the board to make sure it works. No problems there. I don't have an MDD to test the PSU on, but it was sold as a working PSU...

When I power on the DA (either by shorting pins 3 and 6 on the front panel connector or by installing a QuickSilver's front panel board and pushing the power button), the light lights up for about 1/2 second, the PSU comes on, and the red LED next to the RAM slots on the motherboard lights up. The PSU fans stay on and the LED stays on, but I don't get a chime, and the power LED goes out. There are no diagnostic LED flashes or speaker beeps. I tried swapping in the original 466 MHz DA G4 processor board just in case, and that didn't make a difference. I'm using a known good 512 MB SDRAM DIMM (works in my other DA G4), but taking it out doesn't affect the outcome any (I don't get the tones for missing RAM - I still get nothing at all).

I tried the same board in a QuickSilver G4 of unknown status (either the QS board or QS power supply is faulty - I'll be posting a separate thread about that) after disconnecting pin 9 on the PSU (the extra ~28v which is not connected on the DA G4). I get the same results.

Anybody have any idea of what's going on here? I'm at wits end (and a few hundred dollars poorer for all the parts)...

Peace,
Drew

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RE: G4 power supply

You can test your PS when you by-pass the green and an black cable on the main plug.
Then the PS should be starts.

If you plan to take an normal ATX Power supply in your mac check this out www.macnetzteil.de

Olrik

alk's picture
alk
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Let me rephrase

The PSU starts. That's no question. The 4-pin 5 & 12 V lines for hard drives, CDs, etc all are active. The board clearly is getting power, too, as the red LED on the board lights up.

About the only thing I haven't done is get in there with a volt meter to check the individual lines on the motherboard connector to verify that all of them are active...

I'm DEFINITELY not going to use an ATX supply.

Has anybody else here ever had these symptoms on a PSU swap?

-
Drew

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Wich videocard do you use ? T

Wich videocard do you use ? The Quicksilver, DA and Gigaibit only have AGP 4 X.
If you have an 9600pro 9800pro .. or Geforce 5500 etc. you mac will not boot up.
But in the internet it gave many mods for this problem.

Have try an PMU reset ?
Can you tell me wich componets do you have in your mac?

alk's picture
alk
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None

None. Here's what's installed: Power supply, motherboard, CPU.

How can I do a PMU reset if the board won't start?!

FWIW, this problem occurs whether the PRAM battery is installed or not.

Thanks for the ideas so far, but I've tried just about everything. If it were something easy, trust me, I'd have caught it by now.

Peace,
Drew

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Have you tried it with a vide

Have you tried it with a video card in? It may be having trouble coming up with a video device if one isn't there. I'm not sure what sound a Mac makes without a video card, if any at all.

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Have you tried adding some ra

Have you tried adding some ram? That may be part of the problem, too...

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Push the little button near t

Push the little button near the battery for some seconds for a reset.
Thats reset the PMU.

Thats not the same like pram reset.This reset the complete logic board back.

In the PRAM only stored some settings loike video resolution etc.

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Re: Have you tried adding some ra

themike wrote:

Have you tried adding some ram? That may be part of the problem, too...

I second that. You definately need ram, especially since macs no longer come with ram on-board. Try that first then report back.

I know that my B&W G3 will do something similair to when you have no ram. And the fact that the LED lights up red by the RAM slots, definately means something.
Apple generally puts the lights next to the components that they reflect the status. IDE light for IDE Controller, CPU Light for CPU Status, Same should be for the ram

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Do you have the other powerli

Do you have the other powerline connected? The one near the processor I believe, its a small plug. I believe its a 28V line.

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alk
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Wow! Lots of replies!

Thanks for the comments so far!

1) Yep, I've tried it with and w/o RAM, as you'll see in the OP. No change. All NewWorld Macs will at least partially boot without RAM - they'll fail in POST and give a beep to signify that no RAM could be found. This Mac doesn't do that. Apple's Explanation of Beeps
2) Yep, I've pushed the reset button on the mobo (and I've pulled all power, including the PRAM battery, for long periods) No change.
3) A video card is not required - the Mac doesn't make it far enough to bring up an output device. But I did try a Rage 128 (PCI) and GeForce 4 MX anyway. No change.
4) There is no second power connector on the motherboard... The QuickSilver CPUs require 12 V on one of the daughter card posts, and I've provided that by tapping the 12 V supply for a hard drive. This doesn't change anything, nor does using the original DA G4 466 MHz CPU daughtercard.

Here's a thought. Could the board be impropery grounded? The case conversion I did w/ the 8600 uses nylon standoffs, so the board isn't grounded there as well as it would be in a real case, and I didn't exactly screw the board down onto the QS case when I was just in a hurry to see if it would work...

Peace,
Drew

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Re: Wow! Lots of replies!

alk wrote:

Here's a thought. Could the board be impropery grounded? The case conversion I did w/ the 8600 uses nylon standoffs, so the board isn't grounded there as well as it would be in a real case, and I didn't exactly screw the board down onto the QS case when I was just in a hurry to see if it would work...

Well, that doesn't seem to be the problem, either. This time I was meticulous in making sure every screw was connected when I installed the DA G4 board in the QS case. Same problem... *sigh*

The only thing left to try is swap in my working DA motherboard (currently installed in an actual DA G4, imagine that!) to see it if will run off the QS PSU...

Unless anybody has any other ideas!

Peace,
Drew

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Me too

I am experiencing the same symptoms, but for a different project.
My friend tried upgrading the CPU in his DA G4, but it developed the same symptoms as you. He tried putting the original processor back in, but no go. I tried a new power supply, new RAM, new video card, reset PMU, etc. Nothing helped.
I installed in a new motherboard, but that made no difference either.
For some reason, I tried running the new motherboard outside of the case. I just laid it on top of a cardboard box. It booted! I can't figure out for the life of me why the DA motherboard won't boot if it's installed in the DA case. I checked, and it doesn't look like it's shorted to anything.
This is the new motherboard, by the way. I can't get his original motherboard to boot outside of the case.

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Never mind

I just found that one of the USB ports on the new motherboard had a bent pin shorted to the USB shell. As soon as the shell made contact with case ground, it wouldn't boot (or would shut down if it was already running).
I straightened out the bent pin, now all is well. I wish I could figure out what is wrong with the original motherboard.

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alk,

alk,

In all honesty, I do not understand why you are playing around with making an 8600 into a Digital Audio. With what you have spent so far, you could have had a real DA machine complete. I just bought one for under $200. I was originally going to Frankenmac my 7500, but it would have cost me more than the $200 I spent on the DA machine just to bring the 7500 up to the same spec.

sgtwicki,

With the Digital Audio motherboards, Apple drew a line in the sand, as it were, and said "This line the Frankenmacer shall not cross." It seperates the 466,533 machines from the 667,733 machines. If you are only looking to bump your DA up from 466/533 to 667/733 then you are going to need the motherboard version that supports the faster processors. I myself, am trying to figure out whether or not the motherboard from a quicksilver or later G4 is a direct swap into the DA case without making major mods. If you are trying to upgrade the slower 466,533 motherboard, you are better off to find a dual 533 CPU module as that will run everything a lot faster than even a solo 733.

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frankenmacer,

The DA series of Macs all utilize very much the same logic board. The 466/533 board is no different than the 667/733. Apple only lists one board as a service part for the DA series. I can speak from personal experience, the DA logic board will run any of the DA cpu modules without any messing around with multiplier settings or extra 12v lines, its just plug and play. The Quick Silver series of machines is where they more or less drew a line. After the introduction of the QS, if you install a QS cpu module in any older Mac such as a GigE, DA, or AGP, and provided you set the multiplier correctly, and provide 12v on the '4th post' you'll get the QS module to work on whatever board you happen to be using. HOWEVER, (here comes the line) if the CPU module you have from the QS mac is one which features L3 cache, you'll never be able to utilize it. Something changed about the way L3 was handled, so that QS CPUs in non-QS logic board systems, don't get any L3 cache. L2 shows up just fine, but the L3 is missing. To the best of my knowledge the only way to get the L3 to work is to use a QS logic board, or go with an after market CPU upgrade. Oddly, the aftermarket cards seem to have no problem with the L3 showing up regardless of it being installed in a DA, GigE, QS, or AGP.

To answer your question about the QS, the board will fit in the DA case without cutting (ports line up un-like the earlier cases). However, your DA power supply lacks the second 12V connector which is next two the main Logic Board Power Connector on the quicksilver. So if you were to swap your DA board for a quicksilver one, you'd need to either supply a good steady 12v to this plug (I think it supplies the CPU) or you could just use the supply from a QS with the logic board. I wound up starting with a DA/466, clocked to 533, than I obtained the Dual 800 from a QS. Was very bummed about the L3 not being available. Finally located a good QS board and power supply, put those all in the DA case, and then had dual 800s along with the 2mb per cpu of DDR L3. Then I swapped that out for a dual 1gig. And now I've ditched the dual 1gig in favor of a single 1.5, running at 1.6 ('nother thread). So, it might be more sensible to just go with a 3rd party CPU card, and retain the rest of the DA stuff, rather than swap it out for a QS board which doesn't buy you much aside from being able to have L3 cache on a CPU line that topped out at a dual 1gig. If the price was right on a 2002 series, that might be worth it since they have working 48bit LBA 'big drive' support for disks larger than 128gb. Outside of that and the L3, as well as the "12v forth post" on the motherboard, there isn't much more going for a QS vs DA. Architecturally, they are damn close to identical. Both are 133mhz fsb with a 4x AGP, which are the best you can get without going to a MDD, or a G5. (in my opinion the MDD isn't that huge an improvement, since the memory AGP controller was a big limiting factor. I think barefeats had a series of articles about that as well.

BTW: The MDD is waaaayy different. If you could make it fit, it'd be a feat, but I dunno how you'd pull it off. The PCI slots are reversed.

gochi

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Re: Lights

The red light by the ram slot is normal, i think. At least, it is allways on in my MDD G4, which has no problems.

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Re: frankenmacer,

gochi wrote:

The DA series of Macs all utilize very much the same logic board. The 466/533 board is no different than the 667/733. Apple only lists one board as a service part for the DA series. I can speak from personal experience, the DA logic board will run any of the DA cpu modules without any messing around with multiplier settings or extra 12v lines, its just plug and play. The Quick Silver series of machines is where they more or less drew a line. After the introduction of the QS, if you install a QS cpu module in any older Mac such as a GigE, DA, or AGP, and provided you set the multiplier correctly, and provide 12v on the '4th post' you'll get the QS module to work on whatever board you happen to be using. HOWEVER, (here comes the line) if the CPU module you have from the QS mac is one which features L3 cache, you'll never be able to utilize it. Something changed about the way L3 was handled, so that QS CPUs in non-QS logic board systems, don't get any L3 cache. L2 shows up just fine, but the L3 is missing. To the best of my knowledge the only way to get the L3 to work is to use a QS logic board, or go with an after market CPU upgrade. Oddly, the aftermarket cards seem to have no problem with the L3 showing up regardless of it being installed in a DA, GigE, QS, or AGP.

To answer your question about the QS, the board will fit in the DA case without cutting (ports line up un-like the earlier cases). However, your DA power supply lacks the second 12V connector which is next two the main Logic Board Power Connector on the quicksilver. So if you were to swap your DA board for a quicksilver one, you'd need to either supply a good steady 12v to this plug (I think it supplies the CPU) or you could just use the supply from a QS with the logic board. I wound up starting with a DA/466, clocked to 533, than I obtained the Dual 800 from a QS. Was very bummed about the L3 not being available. Finally located a good QS board and power supply, put those all in the DA case, and then had dual 800s along with the 2mb per cpu of DDR L3. Then I swapped that out for a dual 1gig. And now I've ditched the dual 1gig in favor of a single 1.5, running at 1.6 ('nother thread). So, it might be more sensible to just go with a 3rd party CPU card, and retain the rest of the DA stuff, rather than swap it out for a QS board which doesn't buy you much aside from being able to have L3 cache on a CPU line that topped out at a dual 1gig. If the price was right on a 2002 series, that might be worth it since they have working 48bit LBA 'big drive' support for disks larger than 128gb. Outside of that and the L3, as well as the "12v forth post" on the motherboard, there isn't much more going for a QS vs DA. Architecturally, they are damn close to identical. Both are 133mhz fsb with a 4x AGP, which are the best you can get without going to a MDD, or a G5. (in my opinion the MDD isn't that huge an improvement, since the memory AGP controller was a big limiting factor. I think barefeats had a series of articles about that as well.

BTW: The MDD is waaaayy different. If you could make it fit, it'd be a feat, but I dunno how you'd pull it off. The PCI slots are reversed.

gochi

From lowendmac.com

"There are some differences between the 466/533 models and 667/733 models, making it impossible to upgrade the slower one with processors for the faster one. (We see no reason anyone would try the reverse, but that is equally unsupported.)"

Found here:

http://www.lowendmac.com/ppc/g4-133.shtml

Dan Knight is a former Apple tech, salesman and writer of Mac related articles for many years and if he says it can't be done, then it can't be done. Why would he write it if it wasn't true, and if it wasn't true, why didn't the poster above have a working machine after the CPU swap?? You can use the contact link at LEM to ask him why it can't be done. I am sure he would be happy to pass that information on.

I have also found out that the 667 and 733 are PPC7450 chips while the 466/533 are PPC7410 chips, so there likely is a slight difference in the electronics to account for the new process of the faster chips.

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You guys are both WAY off bas

You guys are both WAY off base. Don't believe everything LEM says (heck, half their writers have never even seen a 68k Mac).

I can speak from experience here.

1) There is absolutely no mobo difference between the 466/533 and 677/733 MHz DA G4s.
2) L3 cache from a QS CPU is indeed recognized on a DA G4. I've got a dual 1 GHz G4 from a QS in my DA running fine (even with 2 MB L3 cache per CPU!). I've also got a 933 MHz G4 from a QS running fine in the wife's DA G4.

Finally, I think you're missing the point about the cost of the project. This is in the HACKS forum, after all. It's not about cheap, it's about a cool hack. If I wanted cheap, I'd just go buy any old run-of-the-mill peecee. Did you read the thread above? I've already got a perfectly functional DA G4, so making the 8600 into a DA G4 isn't about getting a DA G4. Undecided

For the record, the problem turned out to be a dead mobo. I ended up buying yet another DA board, and I'm quite satisfied that was what the problem was. In any case, the project was put on hold because the wife wanted a DA of her own (so I boxed up the parts and put the DA board in a new DA case w/ a 933 MHz QS CPU to give her a good G4). One of these days, I'll buy still another board to give it another go in the 8600 case, but after having spent a few hundred dollars on two dead boards and a QS of "unknown status" (source of the 1 GHz dual G4 but which also, unforunately, had a bad mobo), I'm taking it a little slower. Money in, money out.

Peace,
Drew

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Alk, thanks for launching thi

Alk, thanks for launching this thread.

With this thread as a starting point, combined with the death of my Sawtooth board, I had the push to pick up a (fairly) cheap DA 466 system, and drop in a 733 from a Quicksilver.

Adding 12V to the 4th post of the daughtercard works fine. My only concern was there's one less ram slot in the DA board, but the 512 MB dimm I had on hand that didn't work in the Sawtooth works in the DA. Huzzah!

Now I just have to quiet the fans, then decide if I go back to my recasing plans from the Sawtooth, or do another lighting mod in the graphite case. Or, er...start on that bathroom reno :/

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Great! I'm glad I could help

Great! I'm glad I could help!

For the record, my little frankenmac project lives.

I managed to kill the PSU (dead fan) in my DA G4, so I dropped the working board w/ dual 1 GHz QuickSilver CPU into the modded 8600 case. It started right up! The only things I still want to do are install the drive bracket for the bottom of 8600 case, hook up the front panel board so that the 8600's power button works right, and fabricate a back panel cover for the ports.

Otherwise, it's working great! At some point I'll take some pictures. I've got to clean up the office a bit, though. Wink

Peace,
Drew

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Digging up an aging thread, b

Digging up an aging thread, but I thought I'd clarify the DA CPU issue above.

The cache in the Quicksilver CPU I put in my Digital Audio was giving me errors and strange behaviour in OS 9, so I bought a DA 733 CPU.

The DA 733 CPU is plug-and-play into the DA 466 logic board.

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