Criticism on Applefritter

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Mackie's picture
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I noticed recently that Applefritter is distributing Illegal Instrucition.
In fact:

Applefritter is happy to announce the availability of Willliam Ahearn’s new Mac mystery novel Illegal Instruction. Illegal Instruction is available in pdf and will be appearing in installments. - Tom Owad

After reading Illegal Instruction, I have to wonder whenther you guys should be happy about this. II is a fantastic piece of writing, I've never seen a "novel" like it that combines Macs into the story so well. It also demontstrates that whoever wrote it had an idea about how Macs work.
Unforunately, the author went overboard on the use of words like "f---" and explicit descriptions. And THIS after people get warnings when posting a mild word like "a--" on AppleFritter.

Isn't this a bit hypocrite-ic?

Also, I'm still waiting for an explanation on why my thread letting people know of a modding contest was deleted and only a message "no advertisements" sent to me. Wait a minute...
An "advertisement" is an attempt to make money. There's no money involved in this, and I'm not getting paid to hawk it around. I was just letting the modding community here know about it. IIRC, Lauren posted back in February about a contest to win a 1.2GHz PowerLogix CPU. It was not locked, deleted, or otherwise mutilated. In fact, Dr.W said it was legit.

I'm warning you guys now. You got a lot of criticism of AF2, I didn't say anything, because I know that it had to be upgraded to dynamic content. But this isn't about the web site, it's about ethics. You might have made a website, but it's the community that make the mods that make it run. Watch how you treat the community. You've got competition now.

- Mackie
(and by the way, I know what I'm talking about. I've been for almost two years - you can't say that I registered here to troll.)

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GEOS's picture
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I have also noticed a big cha

I have also noticed a big change in the things going on here. Could someone make a new list of rules. i got busted for posting thishttp://www.applefritter.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=other;action=display;num=1073537780;start=0#0 and now no one seems to have a probelem with this topic http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/4330 what all is and is not expectable now? im getting really confused.

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Maybe that's because no moder

Maybe that's because no moderator is currently working for Apple. When Dr. Bob was at Apple, his evil overlords told him that unless he sees to it that no rumors are posted on AF, or they'll find an excuse to fire him. At least, that's how I *think* it happened...Dr. Bob left Apple around the time AF2 was put online.

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yah, maybe. Im just pointing

yah, maybe. Im just pointing out that one thing that happend to me. i just think some things are sliding by now that were not accecptable back in AF1. i think rules need to be clarified. BTW i don't know if it makes any difference, but smykes24 was the one who locked that.

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Mackie's picture
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Yeah, they work together. Dr.

Yeah, they work together. Dr.Webster in particular was pretty, uh, dunno. I opened a thread about how much a Mac 128K was worth, he trolled it, then locked it when I barked back. A few weeks later, someone else opened a topic about a Mac 128's worth. I posted a comment that it's very lucky that DrW didn't come in here. Well, what do you know - 5 hours later he comes by and locks the thread. For that little comment. If it'd have irritated him, he could've deleted my post - no reason why someone shouldn't know his Mac's worth. I started another topic, complaining about it, and was banned for 24 hours. :?

jt
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"Clicky, Clicky" made its first . . .

. . . appearance here recently, AFAIK. IMHO, THAT comment is one thing that should NEVER have been tolerated on AF1.5 or made the transition to AF2.0 . . . >8-| . . . as it is just about as condescending and obnoxious a comment as a mod can get in two words, IMNSHO!

. . . unless of course, dr. bob is on a roll, but his comments are usually entertaining even when they're not particularly funny or even all that witty. "Clicky, Clicky" has no redeeming quality WHATSOEVER!!!!!!

As I suggested way back in the day, when AF 1.5 was a popular and very active forum, you really need to deep six that "Clicky, Clicky" commentary D.W.

The AF2.0 forum community can ill afford to alienate ANYONE posting here at this low point and if you won't take the hint, I'd like to suggest that T.O. enlighten you on the subject of moderator nettiquette.

sincerely,
jt

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BDub's picture
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Re: "Clicky, Clicky" made its first . . .

jt wrote:

. . . appearance here recently, AFAIK. IMHO, THAT comment is one thing that should NEVER have been tolerated on AF1.5 or made the transition to AF2.0 . . . >8-| . . . as it is just about as condescending and obnoxious a comment as a mod can get in two words, IMNSHO!

. . . unless of course, dr. bob is on a roll, but his comments are usually entertaining even when they're not particularly funny or even all that witty. "Clicky, Clicky" has no redeeming quality WHATSOEVER!!!!!!

Oh come on. "Clicky, clicky" is a classic. In my ever so humble opinion of course.

Quote:

As I suggested way back in the day, when AF 1.5 was a popular and very active forum, you really need to deep six that "Clicky, Clicky" commentary D.W.

The AF2.0 forum community can ill afford to alienate ANYONE posting here at this low point and if you won't take the hint, I'd like to suggest that T.O. enlighten you on the subject of moderator nettiquette.

I'd dispute this one too. I haven't read the thread in question yet (life is trying to kill me) but as I read it, your last paragraph said "No, we have to tolerate comments that we'd normally consider garbage, just to make the forums active".

Please note that my opinion may bit flip after I catch up on the forum.

-BDub

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catmistake's picture
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clicky clicky

I've gotten that response to a post, too. What the heck is that supposed to mean?

jt
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Not at all . . .

. . . my second paragraph suggests that in enforcing the rules, moderators refrain from behavior that's often interpreted in a very unflattering light. I posted this comment not to start a row, but to head one off before it got going.

I'll gladly discuss this offline, but for now, I submit that "Clicky, Clicky!" constitutes a classic example of the behavior of a few of the mods here that results in my feeling obliged to defend 'fritter moderation in general and to put a stop to "forum bashing" over at the barracks all too often.

Garbage posts will never be tolerated, but they can be discouraged in ways that are far less likely to be interpreted as offensive by new members and the disgruntled minority of old hands here.

sincerely.
jt

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jt
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Re: clicky clicky

catmistake wrote:

I've gotten that response to a post, too. What the heck is that supposed to mean?

I rest my case, not only is that comment getting very long in the tooth, and mildly annoying at best, it's entirely uninformative. A polite explanation would be far better, even some of the "warez" post discouragements are a bit too ascerbic. There's nothing to be gained, and much to be lost, by coming off like a martinet while "moderting" the forums.

. . . please note that I tried to interject a little humor into what I intended as constructive criticism with the dr. b. comments. As opposed to "Clicky, clicky" his sarcasm IS classic, IMHO.

jt Wink

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To fill you in...

1. I didn't start "clicky clicky." I think it was BDub, but I'm not sure. I picked it up because it was a simple way of saying, "thread closed."

2. "Clicky clicky" isn't the only thing I use. Some troller posted a thread about wanting to buy vehicles and send them to Africa...an obvious and common scam. I didn't use "clicky clicky" on that thread, but rather "BUH-LETED!" (a Strong Bad reference).

3. "No garbage threads" has always been the rule. We have "Remember Outdoors" for non-technical conversations, but if you just want to make up a thread to complain because someone is selling a Mac Plus for $1000 or whatever then do it elsewhere. Overpriced stuff is way common (especially on eBay) and is similar to pointing out, "Hey, the sky is blue!" We have limited server space and bandwidth, and we'd rather dedicate that space to worthwhile content than 8-page-long bitchfests.

4. No foul language has also been the rule. We want to remain a family Web site--and we have lots of younger kids as members (many of them pre-teen). Basically, anything you can't say on broadcast TV won't fly here. "Illegal Instruction" was out of my control. I'm a moderator, not the owner of the site. Putting the book up was Tom's decision, so if you're uncomfortable with its content, tell Tom...don't whine at me.

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jt
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Nobody is "whining" at . . .

. . . anyone. BTW, this entire forum was started by T.O. to address issues related to complaints about AF2.0 and the author of this thread made a request for a clarification of the rules. Granted the tone left something to be desired, but the suggestion was a good one.

bDub is the only one who brought up "garbage threads" and in a misinterpretation of my point at that. Your comment is from left field on that as was his. The term "garbage posts" itself is inflammatory as well. Why does any hint of criticism around here need to result in this kind of wagon circling mentality?

I don't care who came up with "Clicky. clicky!" It's old, obnoxious and redundant to boot! The padlock is eloquent enough and a polite reason for the closing or even a dignified repremand is all that is required, IMHO.

jt Wink

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Rumors

Your rumors post was made back when there was potential for Dr. Bob to get fired because of it. Now, he no longer works at Apple.

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Why you will not swear in the

Why you will not swear in the forums: This is my house and I find it rude.

Why it's ok in the novel: It's a novel. It's supposed to recreate a situation. There's a lot of language in Huckleberry Finn that wouldn't be appropriate in conversation but which is very appropraite in Huckleberry Finn.

Regarding the alleged advertisement hypocricy: I don't read all the threads and I probably didn't notice it. If some other moderator did, he probably didn't think it was a problem. Note that an advertisement is a public notice intended to attract attention or patronage.

Regarding rules: You're definitely right. The old rules need to be reviewed and updated to take into account changes since the move to drupal. I don't have time to do this. Mackie, please send me a copy of the Af1 rules along with your suggested changes.

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re: To fill you in...

Dr. Webster wrote:
"We have limited server space and bandwidth, and we’d rather dedicate that space to worthwhile content than 8-page-long bitchfests."

1) All those 8 page bitch-fests seriously devour server space and bandwidth?!?

Puuhhhleeeeze!!

2) if members are posting to a topic so that it goes 8 pages, doesn't that tell you maybe there's some interest in the topic?!?

BTW, I didn't look real hard, but I don't see no stinkin' posting rules anywhere.

dan k

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Since I'm relatively new...

... to 'Fritter-dom, I'll go ahead & ask a dumb question. Several people have alluded to rules for posts, and I got a minor spanking for posting what was reported to be a photo of the new iMac G5 http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/4330 (since found out that it's a legitimate FAKE -- sorry!), so I'm left wondering if there is there a list of rules for postings anywhere on the site. I've looked around a bit and found nothing. I don't recall seeing any such thing when I signed up (but certainly may have missed it), so if there are any hard & fast rules here, I'd surely like to know about them before getting my hand slapped.

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The AUP at the FAQ

The current AUP (Acceptable Use Policy ) is at the top of the Applefritter FAQ. See http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/3386

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Re: The AUP at the FAQ

G4from128k wrote:

The current AUP (Acceptable Use Policy ) is at the top of the Applefritter FAQ. See http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/3386

actually thats just a reposting of the one from the old forums ... it probably needs revised for AF 2 ... BTW T.O: why not add that FAQ as a link in the top bar? ...

and mods, feel free to edit it as you feel fit!

TOM

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Re: Nobody is "whining" at . . .

jt wrote:

bDub is the only one who brought up "garbage threads" and in a misinterpretation of my point at that. Your comment is from left field on that as was his. The term "garbage posts" itself is inflammatory as well. Why does any hint of criticism around here need to result in this kind of wagon circling mentality?

Sorry if I misinterpeted jt. Could you rephrase your comment so I have a better idea of what you were trying to say? As I understood it, it was a 'Leave stuff we'd normally be tougher on alone, because we need all the posts we can get'. Please correct me. (This is not flamebait, I'm honestly wondering what you were trying to say)

Re-reading it, I'm guessing you were saying that it's important for us to handle things well, not casually or harshly, because we want new members to understand the rules and abide by them instead of driving them away. Am I close at all?

I have to go and tell my English teacher all those comprehension tests I kept aceing were useless Wink (I'm going to note this is a joke as tempers seem to be running high in this thread)

Dr. Webster wrote:

1. I didn't start "clicky clicky." I think it was BDub, but I'm not sure. I picked it up because it was a simple way of saying, "thread closed."

Clicky clicky was _not_ me. I use it sometimes, but I picked it up from you. I always interpeted it as 'A mod was here. Stuffs been done.'

Once again, I have to go have a long take with my English teacher.

-BDub

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jt
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Re: Nobody is "whining" at . . .

BDub wrote:

. . . I'm guessing you were saying that it's important for us to handle things well, not casually or harshly, because we want new members to understand the rules and abide by them instead of driving them away. Am I close at all?

Bingo!

jt Wink

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Re: Criticism on Applefritter

Mackie wrote:

I noticed recently that Applefritter is distributing Illegal Instrucition.

Unforunately, the author went overboard on the use of words like "f---" and explicit descriptions. And THIS after people get warnings when posting a mild word like "a--" on AppleFritter.

Isn't this a bit hypocrite-ic?

- Mackie
(and by the way, I know what I'm talking about. I've been for almost two years - you can't say that I registered here to troll.)

You forgot to complain about the drug use in the novel.....

But as Tom mentioned it's a novel. Censorship of a novel is entirely different than censorship of a forum thread.

But there should be a current set of rules though I've never needed them.

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Re: To fill you in...

Dr. Webster wrote:

[snip]...bitchfests.

4. No foul language has also been the rule.

*cough*

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way of saying, “thread closed.

http://www.applefritter.com/node/view/4249

you "clicky cliky"-ed this post, after moving it to its proper location, a perfectly valid request for information, why? And the thread didn't close, just went way off topic, then died for lack of interest.

I can appretiate that moderation might be a thankless job, but just what did "clicky clicky" accomplish? I think maybe someone needs a sabatical.

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its my understanding that "Cl

its my understanding that "Clicky Clicky" can mean any mod action ... in this case it was Dr. W. moving that thread ...

TOM

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Just felt like saying that th

Just felt like saying that the "clickly clickly" is something that really turned me off from apple fritter when I first found it. When I first saw "clickly clickly", my first impression was "wow, the mods here are post nazis" and it made me afraid to post. To this day, i find it compares to something that Mary Poppins would say to her charges.

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It seems to me that the very

It seems to me that the very versatility that some of the mods find in "Clicky-clicky" is exactly what makes it a useless statement when closing a thread. If there's no consistent meaning, then the whole phrase just seems arrogant and impolite. It might have been funny _once_, but that joke got old fast. Onomatopoeically, I can understand the derivation of the phrase. But instead of mimicking the sound of a lock, why not just tell us all why the thread closed?

We can't learn anything if we don't know what it was we did wrong...

I think everyone would be happier if the mods would agree to use a more descriptive statement when closing, moving, or otherwise locking a thread...

Peace,
Drew

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I think a lot of people need

I think a lot of people need to understand the difference between public discussion fora and authored writings. To tell a story, it must be told as it might happen. If someone is to die in the course of the plot, then the author must write it in. If it sets some sort of character trait then the author must write them doing recreational drugs. Neither situation would be welcome in my home. I wouldn't welcome open fantasy of them in a dialog with other people. I fully understand their use in a novel/story situation.

It's T.O.'s house. If he says "don't curse in the rec room" that doesn't mean that he also doesn't own a book or two describing unsavory acts in the library. He'd probably just keep an eye on what the kids are reading and have them put away any objectionalbe content.

In other words, you can't control what kids hear in a conversation that you aren't participating in all the time. You can ask the conversants to not say certain things and most people would oblige. Then you tell the kids, "You aren't old enough to read and understand the situations in I.I., so don't go reading it until I give you permission."

I may have books I don't want my daughter to read for years, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna throw them away.

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My Comment

Af is still in a transition period. Rules are not well defined for new members. Some rules have obviously changed from the old forums. Everything will be cleared up in time. Until then, we need to act as if were making a first impression all the time.

As for "Clicky-Clicky" I think it's great. I've been "Clickied" once or twice, and instead of starting a new topic to complain about it, I reviewed the rules and re-read the topic. It leaves a lasting lesson in my mind about the dos and don'ts of this particular website.

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AUP? Posting Rules? Posting Instructions...?

and mods, feel free to edit it as you feel fit!

Okay, mind if I drop this little guide to posting into it? Wink

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Re: AUP? Posting Rules? Posting Instructions...?

Blackstealth wrote:

and mods, feel free to edit it as you feel fit!

Okay, mind if I drop this little guide to posting into it? Wink

...I love steam, been using it since it came out. Just a side note...

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Re: "Clicky, Clicky" made its first . . .

jt wrote:

. . . appearance here recently, AFAIK. IMHO, THAT comment is one thing that should NEVER have been tolerated on AF1.5 or made the transition to AF2.0 . . . >8-| . . . as it is just about as condescending and obnoxious a comment as a mod can get in two words, IMNSHO!

It's why I left.

dana