Anybody ACtually Got A CCII?

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Since the CC II is stock stereo, I wondered if it had also had two speakers. I know what the specs say, but they are specs aren't they? Even Apple's official specs are routinely blatantly wrong for some reason. The reason I ask is that the speaker design is such that two could easily fit back-to-back in the cavity inside the case. And as we all know, there is a stereo mod/hack that can be done on the CC -- so wondered if it was ever stock on the CC II.

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I think the silence says it all. :-(

No-one has one!

Stuart

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tmtomh's picture
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Indeed

If Stuart doesn't have one, then no one does! Smile

However, Stuart does have a CCII name badge (IIRC). So he could put a 550 board in a CC, replace the name badge with a CCII badge, split the existing speaker wire, and add a second CC speaker facing out the other side of the case.

The resulting machine would still be mono, but I'd challenge anyone to distinguish two-speaker mono from true stereo given the CC's crappy speakers, all the case plastic blocking direct sound transmission, and the 8-bit, 22.05KHz sample rate sound output. The only way you could tell the difference would be to play sound on it that had been specifically engineered to have certain sounds completely coming out the left or right side of a stereo setup - a test track, or some '70s-era rock and roll that has a lot of speaker-panning in the sound.

'course, Stuart would still know that it wasn't a reall CCII. But others would be hard-pressed to figure it out, especially if the rear case bucket sticker indicated a relatively late production date (a very early production date would prove it couldn't be a CCII).

Best,
Matt

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Er ...

that's not really the point ... I think the CCII is an urban legend. Sad

eeun's picture
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There should have been some s

There should have been some sort of "I'm joking" emoticon after that, right?

The Color Classic II was sold in very limited markets, mainly Japan, with some limited sales in Europe and Canada.

It had a single internal speaker, just like its predecessor.

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But Seriously ...

How do you know this? Have you seen one? This is nothing more than can be found written about it anywhere. I found one site that stated with authority that the CCII was mono -- in fact it was gYounk's 512 site (who claims to have a CCII, but he's not returning calls Smile This of course goes against everything that has been assumed about it. Further, if it is stereo and it uses the analogue board that went into the Mac TV & LC 520/550 then it is ready to add a second speaker, so why not as the CCII was an obvious attempt to put the 550 into a compact Mac for markets where space was at a premium (Japan I get, Canada is still a mystery -- and what: nobody in Canada is interested in a global Colour Classic community support website?). The Apple-History site (no less) indicates that the CC and LC520 use different RAM SIMMS (30 v. 72) -- if this is the case then the CCs and LC 5xxs HAD to have different logic boards, which again goes agasint what we think we "know". My point is there is a lot of erroneous information about the Mac on the web, little of it cites sources (basic term paper techniques). People simply state things as fact without any qualifying background info about themselves or resources. And into the urban lexicon it goes. No offense, but your post does nothing to settle the mud in the water. Until someone produces pictures and details of a production model they own -- for me, there is no CC II. Smile <--good?

You realize that, less than my curiosity, I am more perplexed that someone that actually owns a Color Classic II

P.S. -- I did come across a picture of a Japanese writer's desk that had a Color Classic on it. I belive he had composed a Haiku about it. Smile Dropped him a line, but he either doesn't speak English or he's busy composing Haikus Smile Or he really doesn't have a Color Classic II Wink. Anyway, I was dissapointed to see that the Color Classic II label wasn't in Japanese characters -- as much as I would have been had Stuart not produced his "ColoUr" Classic label using the "proper" Queen's English spelling: which raises another question (sorry) If it was sold in Canada (first, before it went to Asia as some websites indicate), did Canada sell it as ColoUr Classic II or the more Americanized "Color"? The Japanese CCII I saw had the Americanized spelling. Oh, now the door is open -- and what about the French and Germans and Italians? Was it "Classique De Couleur", "Farbe Klassiker", Classico Di Colore? How about Spanish "Obra clásica Del Color" or Dutch: "De Schrijver uit de klassieke oudheid van de kleur" We English speakers are so arrogant! It's soooo unfair!

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Of Course You Realize ...

... that, less than my curiosity, I am more perplexed that someone that actually owns a Color Classic II has not dedicated any web space to worshiping it as those of us with Colour Classics have done in spades. I mean, I think it borders on a disorder of some kind.

P.S. -- I did come across a picture of a Japanese writer's desk that had a Color Classic on it. I belive he had composed a Haiku about it. Smile Dropped him a line, but he either doesn't speak English or he's busy composing Haikus Smile Or he really doesn't have a Color Classic II Wink. Anyway, I was dissapointed to see that the Color Classic II label wasn't in Japanese characters -- as much as I would have been had Stuart not produced his "ColoUr" Classic label using the "proper" Queen's English spelling: which raises another question (sorry) If it was sold in Canada (first, before it went to Asia as some websites indicate), did Canada sell it as ColoUr Classic II or the more Americanized "Color"? The Japanese CCII I saw had the Americanized spelling. Oh, now the door is open -- and what about the French and Germans and Italians? Was it "Classique De Couleur", "Farbe Klassiker", Classico Di Colore? How about Spanish "Obra clásica Del Color" or Dutch: "De Schrijver uit de klassieke oudheid van de kleur" We English speakers are so arrogant! It's soooo unfair!

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Service Manual

Google for the Apple service manual filename: color_classic_ii.perf_275.pdf, and you'll see the single speaker and two-wire connector. Internally mono.

I can see Apple screwing up the listed specs, but not the illustrated tear-down.

The sound hardware lists in the specs:

Quote:

Sound-input, external microphone port, 8-bit monaural sound,
sampled at 22 or 11 kHz
Monophonic sound-output jack for external audio amplifier or
headphones

but also...

Quote:

Monophonic 8-bit digital-analog conversion using 22 KHz
sampling rate for sound input (capable of driving stereo
headphones or other stereo equipment through the sound jack)

Which is darned vague. The first quote says mono, the second implies stereo. So that's still an unknown.

...and my Canadian CCs (three of 'em) are badged 'Color Classic'

Quote:

We English speakers are so arrogant!

Yeah, unlike those humble French and Germans ;D

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Well, heck!

Given eeun's persuasive evidence and reasoning, methinks the mono-stereo issue with the CCII is probably the same as with the original CC: it's mono from the analog board, but stereo via the speaker/headphone jack - just as the Service Manual states.

Also, I don't know why anyone would question the existence of the CCII - not only does the Service Manual exists (I'm looking at a copy right now, in fact), but Stuart has an authentic CCII badge (right Stuart?).

Matt

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My Point Exactly ...

Even in the Service Manual there are discrepancies ... I have this manual and the absence of one speaker really doesn't prove much as it could have been omitted since it is a mirror of the other and there's not a lot of room on that drawing to include it. MORE IMPORTANTLY, given Apple's other inconsistencies in the manual, I'm sure if you have the Color Classic II Service Manual you also have the Color Classic Service Manual. If not do a search and please compare the take apart pages to each other. You'll note they are identical. The part number for the logic board is the same for both, which is also listed as the LC/Performa 550 logic-board. My guess is Apple wrote one manual for the Color Classic which was probably supposed to be the Color Classic II specs in the first place. When they changed the specs to meet a price point or because technology wasn't ready, they didn't revise the take-apart. Both manuals clearly use the identical description of the sound specs which all describe mono -- "capable of driving stereo equipment" does not mean stereo: it means the same signal is distributed on both channels. By comparison, the manual for the LC 520/550/575 lists all of them as being stereo. The 520 is not, though it has two speakers. This is Apple being Apple -- and lazy. That's why you can't even rely on the take-apart manuals. Apple could have very easily decided when they re-released the Color Classic II to implement all the features originally contemplated. In particular, the analogue board that was being manufactured for the Color Classic and LC 520 was now updated for stereo use in the 550 & 575 (the original CC & 520 analogue board has the traces for stereo, but is missing the ICs and connectors). Given that both the logic board and analogue boards were already wired for stereo sound, it would take little extra effort to plug in another speaker and sell the Color Classic II as a mini LC 550, which is what it was.

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I know CCIIs go up on ebay ab

I know CCIIs go up on ebay about twice a year.. the better described ones have fitting system profiler screenshots and case badges.

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Re: Well, heck!

Just to be clear, the CC does not have a stereo logic board. Which means the manual is wrong in both cases however you try to interpret it. The information about sound is identical in the CC and CC II manuals. Since I know for a fact that the CC is mono, the manual has to be wrong. And if it's wrong for one, it's wrong for both and it's not very clear either way what that means. Why are people so eager to trust Apple? Anywhoo, it's not that I REALLY believe there is no CC II, I'm just shocked there aren't more people who have come across one and the subsequent lack of information in this world of the internet, especially when you consider how fanatical CC users in general are (myself included).

tmtomh wrote:

Given eeun's persuasive evidence and reasoning, methinks the mono-stereo issue with the CCII is probably the same as with the original CC: it's mono from the analog board, but stereo via the speaker/headphone jack - just as the Service Manual states.

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This is getting silly

Mac128, in light of the service manual, various online specs, and the lack of information about what most would consider a significant difference between the CC and CCII, and in fact a great rarity in the pre-iMac Apples, I think it's safe to conclude that 1) yes, Virginia, there is was a CCII, and 2) it has a single internal speaker.

What would be the point of a second internal speaker anyway? With the way sound bounces around to get out of the CC case, any noticeable stereo separation would be lost. The housing of the CC would need to be redesigned for stereo speakers, otherwise it would be a complete waste. There was little 'multimedia' content back then to take advantage of it, and CD-ROM drives were still external, expensive add-ons. There is no justification, there is no documentation.

Quote:

Why are people so eager to trust Apple?

...or only trust Apple's documentation when it does support their point, and dismiss it as unreliable when it doesn't.

I'm done with this thread.

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Fine

What's silly is that I have pointed out the numerous inconstancies in the documentation that's being bandied about as proof of anything connected to the CC --AND-- along with that, in the face of Apple's notoriously flawed documentation regarding their products in general, that's still the best argument being presented for the assertions being made here. Let me go on record here -- I don't know what really happened in the development of the CC nor do I believe there is sufficient information to determine it without an actual machine. So, the supposition that there is a mono speaker in the CC II is just as much theoretical hypothesis and specious reasoning as my saying there was no CC II (which I'm not):

Before I write anything else ... I have said this numerous times here -- I don't really believe that the CC II is an urban legend -- it's just a FUN theory based on the absence of evidence of anyone having one. And I thought AppleFritter was all about having FUN ...

As for why there wouldn't be stereo speakers -- don't be ridiculous: the internal CC speaker is pressed directly up against the outer side, which has plenty of perforations to allow the sound to pass. It is not pointed into the case and therefore, no bouncing about of sound inside the case. Also, a stereo field counts on the wide separation of its speakers. Pointing a left and right speaker in opposite directions is similar to the way we hear with a left and right ear on each side of our heads (and the way modern surround sound works BTW, relying on external reflections to enhance the stereo sound field). In fact, I have an iPod mini-speaker attachment made by Macally which is built in this exact configuration. More than that, I have configured my CC this way (using Apple's stock parts) and it has great stereo sound. As for multi-media -- I must remind everybody here that the CC II and the LC 550 came out within months of each other and the stereo LC 550 had a BUILT-IN CD-ROM (So did the LC 520 for that matter which came out shortly after the original CC) as well as stereo speakers, mostly blocked by any keyboard in front of the computer and virtually no stereo separation as they are next to each other. Also, even the original Color Classic was promoted as a Quick Time appliance (there's a sticker right on the front of the case for God's sake!!) -- which of course was Apple's new MULTI-MEDIA software which they hoped and ultimately revolutionized the way we listen to music and video. To say there was no real multi-media as a reason the Color Classic was mono is accurate in only that there wasn't much available yet in QuickTime format when the original Color Classic was released. BTW, Apple introduced the stand-alone Power CD a few months after the Color Classic debuted specifically for their PowerBooks which could not incorporate current CD-ROM devices. AND talk about Multi-media: the MacTV debuted shortly after the CC and included stereo inputs as well! It was short lived and only released in the US and then, it was followed by the Color Classic II which was only sold overseas. Interesting.

Just wanted to get the facts straight. In Summary: Apple is often wrong in their documentation (specific instances regarding this thread have been highlighted), one cannot assume something about a Mac based solely on Apple's documentation (but is not proof either way), Multimedia was a significant focus for Apple on the Macs produced during the Color Classic's era, CD-Roms were built-in on most of the Macs of this era (not just external, nor were the very expensive as they were included in the LC line or "Low Cost") and the Color Classic housing is perfectly suited for stereo sound reproduction, particularly for stereo separation, and there is no "bouncing around" of sound inside the Color Classic -- all incorrect assumptions based on I-don't-know-what. There is so much misinformation out there about the Mac there's no need to propagate further inaccuracies.

Now I'M done. Smile But hopefully not with this topic as I long for a real CC II owner to step forward.

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re: ". . . I long for a real CC II owner to step forward."

Me too! It'd be great to hear from someone who actually has (or has had) one of these elusive beasties! Speculation is fun (well, ought to be, anyhow Tongue ), I'd like some details of the real deal.

Best case of course would be a full photo set and board scans of a genuine CCII . . .

dan k

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Got a board!

I have a CC II board, apparently. Does that qualify? Smile

(See other thread in this forum re: CC Board ID).

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:-) Correction

Not unless the case badge reads: CC II! I doubt someone put a CC II logic board in an original CC case, but it's possible!

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according to apple-history.co

according to apple-history.com, the color classic is mono output on two speakers, AKA "fake stereo". also, from what i can tell from systems i have owned and used, Macs from this time are either mono or fake stereo.
BTW I also owned a Color Classic II for about 3 years, until my house got broken into. At the time, i had no idea what I had.

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Flawed

Thanks for the effort. This is is what I meant by misinformation floating around on the web about Macintosh -- much of it caused by Apple themselves. Apple-History.com has a lot of inaccuracies -- no fault of Glen Sanford's, much of it comes from Apple, though I appreciate anyone attempting to take on the project. Many of us contribute corrections from time-to-time when we verify something. The Color Classic is most assuredly mono on one speaker, though I concur that there was a lot of "fake stereo" during that period in general. The LC 550 logic board is in fact stereo as I have used specialized audio files to test this and the analogue board also faithfully reproduces it -- it's just not very dramatic as there is not much stereo separation since the speakers are so close together. The Color Classic's analogue board has the tracings for stereo speakers, all that's missing is the IC amplifier, and a couple of capacitors and resistors (which is the basis for the CC stereo mod). It was designed for stereo, but shipped with a mono logic board. By the way, the Color Classic case design always contemplated a mono speaker placed in the curved chin-like section between the legs with the obvious sound perforations. At some point the speaker was moved to its current location, possibly because it was going to be stereo. Summarizing a few threads from above, the take apart manual for the original Color Classic and the Color Classic II, both indicate the same part number for the logic board, which is the same part number for the LC 550 logic board. As is often the case with Apple, they may have changed their minds at the last minute and shipped the Color Classic in its current configuration, explaining the discrepancy in the Service Manual, or, it was just plain wrong. The CC II could easily have been as eeun suggests, a stock Color Classic with a 550 logic board and a new badge, but with the same mono speaker configuration. In which case, we're not missing much! But unlike any other Mac we discuss on these forums, no one has apparently seen a CC II and therefore, we can ONLY speculate about how it was originally configured, regardless of any available documentation.

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Re: Flawed

Mac128 wrote:

Thanks for the effort. This is is what I meant by misinformation floating around on the web about Macintosh [...] unlike any other Mac we discuss on these forums, no one has apparently seen a CC II and therefore, we can ONLY speculate about how it was originally configured, regardless of any available documentation.

But, TheMike just stated he owned one for 3 years...

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Do'h!

As soon as I'm able to edit that comment. I'll fix that: The Mike DID say he had a CC II, NOT a CC! Praise the Lord we have a weiner! I was confused because he left the "II" off of his Apple-History reference in the first paragraph. Now I understand his post about not knowing what he had when it got stolen. So now the questions will start flowing ... How long ago was your CC II stolen? It's hard to imagine any theif going to the trouble today to take such an obviously antiquated (and bulky) computer ... unless he was one of us! I was thinking of disqusing my PowerBook in an old PC case when I leave it at home to discourage a would-be theif.

So are you confirming that the Color Classic II you owned for 3 years had two speakers -- one on each side outputting dual mono sound?

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My CCII was stolen, about 3 y

My CCII was stolen, about 3 years ago, and I had no idea what it was or even that it was a Mac. (I used to be a PC guy). So I was more concerned about getting back my camera, TV, and PC than the old Mac under my bed. I have no idea what kind of speaker setup it had or anything about it really besides that it was a CCII.

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Re: Do'h!

Mac128 wrote:

So now the questions will start flowing ... How long ago was your CC II stolen? It's hard to imagine any theif going to the trouble today to take such an obviously antiquated (and bulky) computer ... unless he was one of us!

Sounds like the next chapter of Illegal Instruction. Smile

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My 2¢

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=112236

Apple has a specifications page for the Colour Classic II. Towards the bottom it says "This system is [sic] not sold in the U.S."

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Not sure that counts as YOUR 2 cents ...

What exactly are you saying? Because Apple never sold one in the US, no one in the US can possibly have one? I had a buddy who brought back a blue tooth headset he bought in Japan before anybody ever thought about marketing one in the US ... so following that logic, it didn't actually exist, because it wasn't SOLD here. Either way, AppleFritter is on the WORLD WIDE Web and I'm sure has more than a few members who don't live in the US, Stuart Bell for one who administers the CC list (and I'm sure would love to get his hands on one of them "International" CC IIs!).

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If not an actual CCII. . . . . . .

. . . . . I wouldn't mind some decent photographs, including the embossed ID panel that's on the base of CCs - what does the CCII's say? - and, to answer the speaker issue finally - some interior shots.

AFAIK, I've never seen a decent picture of a CCII!

Stuart

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I've seen about 10 of them..

I've seen about 10-15 CCII's.. in Japan. I went to Tokyo in 2003 and 2004, and both times I found lots of Apple stores in Akihabara (Electric City) with CCII's (and Lisas, MacXLs, TAMs etc).

Can't help with any of your specific questions though, sorry Smile But just so you know, the things do exist.

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Horror Movie, Or Bad Dream

I just had a horrible thought for a movie, what if Akihabara was the worldwide graveyard for all the old abandoned Macs ... what if an electric surge brought all those Lisas, XLs and TAMs to conciosness and they all set out to seek revenge on Steve Jobs for abandoning/destroying or crippling them? There could be a scene where a group of Lisas go to Utah to resurect the MacXL's in the landfill ... Zombie Macs! 128ks could have all kinds of ugly expansion hacks implanted on them so they can be more powerful computers. A real Mac Army ... Wait! Steve Wozniak could be the mad scientist who brings them to life!!! OK, I'll shut up now ...

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Don't feel bad.. I had a drea

Don't feel bad.. I had a dream last night that I found a Lisa that was the size of a large suitcase.

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