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Topic: PowerExpress (Read 8778 times) |
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Jax
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #30 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 2:49pm » |
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Not easilly to say the least.
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captain6
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #31 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 6:18pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2003, 2:49pm, Jax wrote:Not easilly to say the least.
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that means theres a way [evil laugh] 
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Jax
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #32 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 6:53pm » |
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It would basicly mean unsoldering the ROM chips and making a copy of them, then replacing the startup tone with your own (in itsself will be fun) then flashing the modded ROM onto a compatable chip and soldering that into your mac. Of course the startup file will have to be pretty close in size to the one thats in there now, and the same format.
And this is just going by my limited understanding.
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captain6
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #33 on: Dec 31st, 2003, 1:00pm » |
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i like solderind but not enough to risk screwing up my only computer. but it would be awsome to have that tone.
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Trash80toG-4
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #34 on: Jan 4th, 2004, 2:42pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2003, 6:53pm, Jax wrote:It would basicly mean unsoldering the ROM chips and making a copy of them, then replacing the startup tone with your own (in itsself will be fun) then flashing the modded ROM onto a compatable chip and soldering that into your mac. Of course the startup file will have to be pretty close in size to the one thats in there now, and the same format.
And this is just going by my limited understanding. |
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AFAIK, that's pretty darn close! 
Assuming that you own them legally, of course, you could write a copy of the ROMs of most older Macs with utilities that are free downloads from some of the emulator sites. This is done without opening the case, much less removing the ROMs from the MLB.
You could then try spelunking blindly in the ROM format for the startup sounds, or crack the case and hook up a logic analyzer in order to find out which addresses are accessed when the hardware plays the startup tune. 
You'll need to read the license agreements carefully to make sure you aren't breaking any if you want to discuss this idea further (or at all) here on 'fritter, though.
If this post is in any way out of line as regards the AUP, I'll gladly delete it upon request from any mod or admin.
jt
p.s. "burning" a new ROM would be the correct nomenclature for this particular paleolithic-pre-Flash Memory process, btw.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2004, 2:58pm by Trash80toG-4 » |
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Captain Z
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #35 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 5:16pm » |
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You guys got a kick out of the Chimes of Doom, wait till you hear this.
I spent the day over at Trash80's place, running tests on his board (with the ROM PLCC's) and a hunch that he had. He dumped in one of his 128MB PC133 RAM sticks from his G4 in, and successfully got a boot chime! Not just any chime, but a special custom one only found on PEx!
PEx Boot Chime
The theory is, the systems have a 50MHz system bus, so it needs memory and processors at speeds multiple of 50. I was using PC66 memory prior, so the speeds didn't sync right, thus failing startup tests.
With this new information available, I will pull a PC100 RAM stick out of my G4, and see what I can get out of PowerExpress Manhattan, which also has ROM's. On Wed., I'll head over to RadioShack to get a chip puller to move the PLCC ROMs over from PEx Manhattan to the PEx Tower, and see progress there.
Thanks for all the help Trash80!
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Captain Z - Mobile Operations Cmdr.
68K Mac Liberation Army
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word04
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #36 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 6:29pm » |
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ooo00! 
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A frammistan is a device you don't know the purpose of, and a frammistand is what it is placed on.
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Jax
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #37 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 6:31pm » |
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Wow! If the LC had a chime like that I woulda bought one of the damn things!
Macs need more interesting tones. Anyone here ever hear an SGI Indy starting up? Thats a sound no one forgets!
http://154.5.164.45/chimes/
Take a little look around there.
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Trash80toG-4
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #38 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 7:27pm » |
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on Dec 28th, 2003, 9:22am, JetStar wrote:Sweet! Wonder what the startup chime will be...  |
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LOL! Now we know!
Hopefully, we'll find out even more than that! PogoHampster Express' package tracking system reports the 604ev/250 Kansas-specific Processor Card to have arrived intact at my sister's for transhipment!
jt
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Clinton
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #39 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 10:20pm » |
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sweet!
so how did you manage to get a boot chime if the processor was still incompatable. Are we dipping into the oddities of the PEx when we look at the fact that we get a boot chime sans processor?
when I had time, I played with my 8600/300, and disassembled it for cleaning. I put it back together, and forgot the processor card, but when I booted I got the chimes of doom.
is this a sign that the issues of the PEx processor compatability could be sort of null, and we could have another issue on our hands.
god, I'd like to get down and dirty on this project, it'd be fun..
anyhoo, good luck to you both.
CCC
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Clinton Crawford
"Stupidity should be painful and expensive"
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Captain Z
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #40 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 11:13pm » |
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on Jan 5th, 2004, 10:20pm, Clinton wrote:sweet!
so how did you manage to get a boot chime if the processor was still incompatable. Are we dipping into the oddities of the PEx when we look at the fact that we get a boot chime sans processor? |
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There was a processor installed (132MHz 604) at the time we attempted to boot it. We got a chime verifying it passed the startup tests (presence of a daughter card, memory test, load ROM), but after that point, nothing happens (no video signal, no ability to zap PRAM) This may be due to using an incompatable processor.
Prior tests used PC66 memory, which is too slow to be used with the system bus. That would cause a failure of the startup tests, causing the Chimes of Doom. When at Trash80's place, we tested it with PC133 RAM, fast enough to pass the basic tests.
The theory between Trash80 and I is that the processor, memory, and system bus speeds all need to be in multiples of 50. Logic behind this is:
- PC66 wasn't fast enough, next step is PC100
- The motherboard has similarities with the 9600, which had 40-50MHz system buses
- 250MHz processor, PC100 memory, 50MHz system bus
Earlier, I ran a test on PEx Manhattan with a stick of 128MB PC100 RAM. Still no go  . After talking with Trash80, it may be due to the RAM speed still. The 9600 series requires 70MHz or faster RAM. The stick I tested with is only 60MHz though. I know there are no PC133 RAM sticks in my house, so I'll look through my spare iMac, G4, and my Dad's G4 for faster PC100 memory tomorrow.
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Captain Z - Mobile Operations Cmdr.
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Jax
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #41 on: Jan 5th, 2004, 11:20pm » |
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on Jan 5th, 2004, 11:13pm, Captain Z wrote:
Earlier, I ran a test on PEx Manhattan with a stick of 128MB PC100 RAM. Still no go . After talking with Trash80, it may be due to the RAM speed still. The 9600 series requires 70MHz or faster RAM. The stick I tested with is only 60MHz though. I know there are no PC133 RAM sticks in my house, so I'll look through my spare iMac, G4, and my Dad's G4 for faster PC100 memory tomorrow. |
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??
If you mean 70 Nanosecond or faster, then 60 is faster then 70...
(on the model number of the chips on the RAM chip is usually a -7 or -6 or -whatever to denote the speed, and thats not measured in MHz.)
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bobotech
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #42 on: Jan 6th, 2004, 7:41am » |
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I just want to say that I find this whole thread fascinating. The whole idea of what "could have been" and what they were supposed to be.
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I play Atari while eating my string cheeze!
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Trash80toG-4
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #43 on: Jan 6th, 2004, 8:12am » |
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on Jan 5th, 2004, 11:20pm, Jax wrote:
??
If you mean 70 Nanosecond or faster, then 60 is faster then 70...
(on the model number of the chips on the RAM chip is usually a -7 or -6 or -whatever to denote the speed, and thats not measured in MHz.) |
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That's my fault, it was very late and my brain was fried from the excitement of EVT2's arrival and several hours of PEx degubbing!
I'd emailed Z with a question about the speed of his DIMMs, using improper nomenclature (Mhz instead of Nanoseconds) while trying to define the parameters for establishing the compatibility of his PC100 DIMMs with PEx.
I suspect that the system bus of PEx might actually be 66 Mhz, requiring the use of PC133 DIMMs. The Kansas boards were already at the 50 Mhz/PC100 level, so it makes sense to me that PEx may have been a semi-successful approach to expanding the I/O envelope to something approaching 66 Mhz/PC133.
. . . just another hunch tho!
jt
p.s. does anybody recall what the DIMM compatibility issues were around the time of the shift to PC133? I missed out on that particular mess!
p.p.s. THE PALADIN (peripheral) HAS LANDED! But that story is for another thread!
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| « Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2004, 8:28am by Trash80toG-4 » |
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Eudimorphodon
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Re: PowerExpress
« Reply #44 on: Jan 6th, 2004, 8:43am » |
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on Jan 6th, 2004, 8:12am, Trash80toG-4 wrote:
I suspect that the system bus of PEx might actually be 66 Mhz, requiring the use of PC133 DIMMs. The Kansas boards were already at the 50 Mhz/PC100 level, so it makes sense to me that PEx may have been a semi-successful approach to expanding the I/O envelope to something approaching 66 Mhz/PC133.
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PC66 = 66Mhz bus. PC100 = 100Mhz Bus. PC133 = 133Mhz Bus. (In other words, you don't need to double the bus speed to get the correct DIMM.)
If you think the board might have aggressive memory timing, use high-quality PC100 in it. Good quality chips should support either CL2 or CL3, and getting the faster chip will give you some wiggle room to deal with slop.
--Peace
P.S. It is all about getting decent quality DIMMs. Cheap ones usually support either one or a very limited range of timing settings, and often lack properly set up configuration eeproms. (Which some memory controllers depend on.)
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| « Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2004, 8:46am by Eudimorphodon » |
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