Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

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I have a rev 0 machine with 48K + 16K Apple Language Card - and nothing else. No disk controller, nothing. All other slots are empty.

When I power up with the Language Card installed, I get an all-white screen in lo-res graphics mode. Pressing RESET takes me to Integer BASIC.

When I power up without the Language Card, I get the same all-white screen. Pressing RESET takes me to the monitor, and CTRL-B from there takes me to Integer BASIC.

My understanding of how the Autostart ROM on the Language Card should work is that power-up should perform an automatic RESET and take me directly to BASIC if there's no disk controller installed.

I swapped in a spare Language Card, with the same result.

Am I misunderstanding the Autostart ROM? Or could there be something wrong with my motherboard?

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resman's picture
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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

It's working as designed. The Rev0 didn't have a power-on reset. Your language card supplies the autostart ROM. If you plug in a Disk II card, you will get the power-on reset. Combine the language card and Disk II card and you will get power-on reset and autostart, just like in later revs.

Dave...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

But isn't automatic reset part of Autostart? Why is the Disk II card also needed for that?

Dog Cow's picture
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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

The Disk II controller card pulls the reset line. It actually makes the reset take just a bit longer on Apple models that already do a power-on reset.

The Autostart ROM adds:
- two new monitor subroutines
- enhanced screen editing keys
- reset vector
- search for Disk II controller and boot if found

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

So why is it that my Apple II+ (rev 7) with Autostart on the motherboard, and no Disk II controller, resets on power-up and takes me to Applesoft?

Does it make a difference whether the Autostart ROM is in a Language Card or on the motherboard? Or is there something else in the Applesoft ROMs that initiates the RESET regardless of disk controller?

Just trying to make sure I have a full understanding! Smile

resman's picture
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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

Link wrote:

So why is it that my Apple II+ (rev 7) with Autostart on the motherboard, and no Disk II controller, resets on power-up and takes me to Applesoft?

Does it make a difference whether the Autostart ROM is in a Language Card or on the motherboard? Or is there something else in the Applesoft ROMs that initiates the RESET regardless of disk controller?

Just trying to make sure I have a full understanding! Smile

The Autostart ROM has the code to scan the slots for a Disk II card/fall into BASIC. The actual power-on reset is a hardware mechanism present on later rev motherboards as well as the Disk II card (for those Rev0 MB's) to get the process started. Only the Apple Language Card has the Autostart ROM which will override the MB ROM. All of the third party Language Cards were simply RAM. The Apple Language Card was a little bit of RAM card and a little bit of the Apple ROM card (which would replace all the ROM on the MB).

Your thinking in regards to having the Autostart ROM and power-on reset combined on the Language Card would have probably made more sense.

Dave...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

Dog Cow wrote:

The Disk II controller card pulls the reset line.

resman wrote:

The Autostart ROM has the code to scan the slots for a Disk II card/fall into BASIC. The actual power-on reset is a hardware mechanism present on later rev motherboards as well as the Disk II card (for those Rev0 MB's) to get the process started.

Wow. All these years I thought the Autostart ROM handled the reset - but I was just using the II+. I didn't possess a rev 0 until a few years ago, and I didn't remove the Disk II controller from it until just recently, so I guess there wouldn't have been much to challenge my thinking. Smile

Looks like there's a lot of misinformation out there regarding Autostart and reset; I Googled a fair bit before coming here and ran across multiple sites that confirmed my (incorrect) thinking, I guess because it seems more intuitive!

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

(Oops, duplicate post.)

resman's picture
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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

Link wrote:

Wow. All these years I thought the Autostart ROM handled the reset - but I was just using the II+. I didn't possess a rev 0 until a few years ago, and I didn't remove the Disk II controller from it until just recently, so I guess there wouldn't have been much to challenge my thinking. Smile

Looks like there's a lot of misinformation out there regarding Autostart and reset; I Googled a fair bit before coming here and ran across multiple sites that confirmed my (incorrect) thinking, I guess because it seems more intuitive!

Just to be clear, it is the Autostart ROM that handles the reset (in software); it's the Rev1 and above/Disk II card that initially tug on the RESET line at power-on, obviating the need to physically press the Reset key to get things going.

BTW, I went through the same exercise when, unable to find an authentic Rev0 (lucky you!), I built Mike Willegal's Rev0 clone. I wanted that boot feel of the original Monitor ROM but also wanted the Apple Language Card for Pascal and ProDOS. I popped out the Autostart ROM on the LC and put the original F8 ROM in it's place. When it started reseting itself at power-on after installing the Disk II card is when I discovered that feature.

Dave...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

There is one other start up feature of the rev 0 that may be confusing. The flip flop that captures keyboard input strobe powers up "asserted" and it's not connected to reset. This means that the monitor or whatever program that initially tries to read the keyboard, will capture a character from the keyboard port, even before you type anything. The character read depends upon the keyboard power up state. On my system, it's not printable, so it doesn't show up on the screen. However, the monitor (for example) put's it in the input buffer. The result is that the first line you enter will usually result in a syntax error.

Regards,
Mike Willegal

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

The Apple Language cards weren't the only ones with a place for an Autostart ROM, there were a few others, I've got a couple. I'll have to admit that third party ones with a place for an F8 ROM were very uncommon. Let me know if you want a pic of one.

resman wrote:

The Autostart ROM has the code to scan the slots for a Disk II card/fall into BASIC. The actual power-on reset is a hardware mechanism present on later rev motherboards as well as the Disk II card (for those Rev0 MB's) to get the process started. Only the Apple Language Card has the Autostart ROM which will override the MB ROM. All of the third party Language Cards were simply RAM. The Apple Language Card was a little bit of RAM card and a little bit of the Apple ROM card (which would replace all the ROM on the MB).

Your thinking in regards to having the Autostart ROM and power-on reset combined on the Language Card would have probably made more sense.

Dave...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

Wayne wrote:

The Apple Language cards weren't the only ones with a place for an Autostart ROM, there were a few others, I've got a couple. I'll have to admit that third party ones with a place for an F8 ROM were very uncommon. Let me know if you want a pic of one.

Thanks Wayne, I did not know that. I wonder if they shipped with a ROM or you were supposed to source your own?

Dave...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

I don't actually know how they came but the one I have handy has an EPROM on it that has a piece of paper over the window with a hand written "Apple F8" on it. My suspicion is that the EPROM was an owner addition.

On the one I have handy unlike the Apple card it's default was the 2716 but has solder pads to modify it for the 2316.

Now I'm getting curious and am tempted to look for the other card in storage. Plus there's a few other things I'd like to locate. Unfortunately I threw out my back so I'm avoiding lifting for the moment. Maybe on the weekend.

Dog Cow's picture
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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

resman wrote:
Wayne wrote:

The Apple Language cards weren't the only ones with a place for an Autostart ROM, there were a few others, I've got a couple. I'll have to admit that third party ones with a place for an F8 ROM were very uncommon. Let me know if you want a pic of one.

Thanks Wayne, I did not know that. I wonder if they shipped with a ROM or you were supposed to source your own?

Dave...

The Apple Language Card shipped with the Autostart ROM installed.

Learn more by reading the Apple Language System manual: http://www.applelogic.org/files/LANGCARDMAN.pdf

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

Dog Cow wrote:
resman wrote:
Wayne wrote:

The Apple Language cards weren't the only ones with a place for an Autostart ROM, there were a few others, I've got a couple. I'll have to admit that third party ones with a place for an F8 ROM were very uncommon. Let me know if you want a pic of one.

Thanks Wayne, I did not know that. I wonder if they shipped with a ROM or you were supposed to source your own?

Dave...

The Apple Language Card shipped with the Autostart ROM installed.

Yes, but that particular sub-conversation quoted above was about how *non*-Apple RAM cards rarely had ROM (populated or not). I've never seen one myself, but I only have about 5 non-Apple ones...

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Re: Language Card + rev 0 Apple II?

david__schmidt wrote:
Dog Cow wrote:
resman wrote:
Wayne wrote:

The Apple Language cards weren't the only ones with a place for an Autostart ROM, there were a few others, I've got a couple. I'll have to admit that third party ones with a place for an F8 ROM were very uncommon. Let me know if you want a pic of one.

Thanks Wayne, I did not know that. I wonder if they shipped with a ROM or you were supposed to source your own?

Dave...

The Apple Language Card shipped with the Autostart ROM installed.

Yes, but that particular sub-conversation quoted above was about how *non*-Apple RAM cards rarely had ROM (populated or not).

Quite so. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:

I've never seen one myself, but I only have about 5 non-Apple ones...

That sounds logical. I don't suppose that Apple would like other companies selling its F8 ROM.

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