Call me simple-minded...

Not at all. I wish there were more politicians in DC who thought along the same lines. Who thought it necessary to bring all this up in the first place?

I, as a decendeant of immigrants, feel that "illegal" and "alien" are wrongfully being taken out of the argument in most cases. Some of my families name sake came over here from Germany in the 1870s, so while we aren't "recent" we also aren't old time, being post-Am. Civil War. Other's in my family tree came here just prior to the war, and *fought in it*, such was their devotion to their new nation. All learned to speak English, willingly. Very few of use speak German (of the 100+ relatives from my fathers parents on down, he had 10 sibilings) and we assimilated into the American culture. All the immigrants in my family tree that I know of were legally admitted to the country, even going so far as to "Americanize" their names to fit the culture better.

With that kind of history I see these recent illegal aliens waving a forgein flag in my country and *demand* rights and *demand* respect (which absolutely cannot be demanded and gotten) and all the while ignoring the illegality of their situation. It's a travesty done unto the true history of immigrant families in the USA to call out aginst those of us who want to stop an illegal tide of people from coming and stealing from our national support systems

And always keep in mind the issue is illegal aliens and nothing else in my argument. Except maybe that spectre of the Leftist Communist undertones of the people organizing these protests. The only prblem with the Communists trying for a workers revolt is that we acctually can get along with our lives without the work of these illegal aliens.

we have huge borders to the north and south... there's just no way to protect them completely... the US is not the old West Berlin... (er... East Germany) And you can forget about deporting the illegals, it'd be impossible. Amnesty is one solution, but the conservatives hate it... they don't care what it costs... even at the risk of bankrupting our country, they want illegals deported.

IMHO... Manifest Destiny presents a nice solution: annex Canada and Mexico, all the Caribbean islands, Cuba, Haiti and the DR, and all of Central America, and the border problem is near solved, not to mention eventual elimination of the major drug cartels. This isn't as ridiculous as you may think.

As a Canadian, I have to politely say no to that plan.

I have heard talk of one of Canada's provinces (Quebec) having serious (albeit underground) talks about separatist actions including, but not limited to, application for statehood to the United States.

If this were to happen, hopefully it would not affect the fine folks at newtontalk.org and their ever present quest for poutine... but I digress.

We do not necesairly have to annex the whole continent or deport illegals, but we do need to be able to account for them and their wherabouts.

As I've said here before; Canadians burned your White House down once before. Don't think we can't do it again.

until you are annexed... you don't get to decide.

I think the ACLU, and most law abiding citizens would disagree... if a system were in place to accomplish that, tracking innocent citizens is just an executive priviledge away.

The whole point of this is to push borders back to natural fences... the border could no longer be walked across... it'd be the arctic, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans... no muslim extremists are going to be walking in through the north pole in winter... trust me. And the coasts, while technically under the pervue of the coast guard, is also being watched (er... listened to) very closely by the US Navy and the sub fleet, who will notify the Coast Guard and agencies such as the DEA of suspiscious activity. I'm pretty sure they even have a database of identified crafts... as the aural signature of a craft is unique, even across the same kind of boat and engine. This technology is here now... no assembly required, batteries included.

I highly doubt the problem of terrorism has anything to do with Mexicans or Canadians (I've never even heard of Mexican or Canadian extremists). Mexicans are great, and Canadians, at least, are a little funnier (and thus more entertaining) than your average american. Let them come and go as they please... make them citizens... let them vote... make them pay taxes. From the American perspective... there is little downside here. I think unfettered access to Canada's natural resources more than makes up for having to absorb Quebec and its frenchiness.

Quebec had a referendum 10 years ago where they voted on whether to separate and form a separate nation or not. I believe the votes fell at 51% for remaining part of Canada. Given the reasoning behind the want for separation, I doubt joining the States would be a satisfactory solution. The idea of separatism in Quebec is not an underground thing.

I'm rather glad they didn't. I'm attending University in Quebec at the moment.

tin foil hats on, guys... that's to these comments, the NSA has probably flagged AF.

And you just totally missed the point. Track those who are coming into the US, before they become citizens, or while they are visiting. Those are the problems with terrorists we've already seen. They overstayed their student visas, and nobody could find them, or even cared. So long as we make mandatory enforcement of existing limitations, things should improve. The point is to create a dis-incentive to staying illegal. If we make life hard for somebody to over stay their welcome, they'll try harder to stay legal. If they don't stay legal, we kick 'em out. That's pretty simple. We should also make it an easier and more clear process for those who have gotten some sort of temporary living permit here to attain citizenship. If they over stay their permit, kick 'em out. We need to put the fear of law into all of this. People stay because they aren't afraid that the police will (figuratively) kick in their door and drag them back over the border if they continue to break the law.

The extermists that were here aske dto be here, we let them in, then we lost track of them. Crossing an open border had nothing to do with their attacks. They needed some sort of legal status to get ID to do many of the things they did. Being an illegal alien in this country won't get you very far, including not getting piloting training and boarding a major jetliner at an airport. Both need some sort of legal ID. Especially now. I'm for closing the border to control the rampant crossing by those who come here and continually break our law and steal our tax money by being here illegally. The terrorist threat is a smaller aprt of the overall picture there, but it's there. Don't forget that we've tried forced deportation before, and it worked. That is until people decided that the image of being forceful was worth more than the security of the country.

I can point out Canadian extremeists if needed, and we only need to point out the pervasive Mexican mob and corrupt culture, along with the Mexican Communist and drug groups and there's a large load of extremists right there. Remember, Leon Trosky was killed in Mexico City with the aid of Mexican Stalinists.

Quote:

Mexicans are great, and Canadians, at least, are a little funnier (and thus more entertaining) than your average american. Let them come and go as they please... make them citizens... let them vote... make them pay taxes. From the American perspective... there is little downside here. I think unfettered access to Canada's natural resources more than makes up for having to absorb Quebec and its frenchiness.

To make them citizens, they gotta start following the law. For many illegal aliens that have been here and have continually broken the law, we need a dis-incentive to get them to do thee legal thing. The problem in the US is lax enforecment and little fear of deportation. We need strong dis-incentives to being illegal.

I think many people forget the stronger notion of national sovereignty that other people feel for their country. They tend to over look the soveriegnty of the USA when it's convenient for an illegal alien argument, but they cry sovereignty if we go some where to try to help the people out (Iraq). It can't go both ways. US citizens get to feel just as much that this is "our" nation as anybody in any other nation on earth. And by virtue of it being "our" country, we the citizens get to say who does and doessn't get to live and work here. We've already done so, but the sissy politicians don't want to step up to the task of enforcing the already spoken will of the people.

If it was decided ... I don't see what could stop it... masses of individuals' sense of national identity isn't like some irresistable force to be reckoned with.... do either Canada or Mexico have anything militarily that could stand up to the career experts and technology that is and is available to the US military? Those gov'ts could be destablized with a crank call... ok... but seriously, once the gov'ts are conquered... there's hardly anything left. This isn't an age of land wars, anymore... ground troops enter after the major targets are already obliterated. But I doubt it would even come to something like that... it wouldn't be a war... there'd be resistence, but it wouldn't be guerrilla resistence, it'd be concientious resistence. And resistence would be nearly gone within a single generation. If I'm missing something, clue me in, by all means. If the US gov't wanted to... how could Canada, Mexico, Cuba, etc., stop them? Would the UK really come to Canada's aid? And so what if they did? (Bear in mind, this is all just an idea... not an agenda!)

Technically, it could happen. Canada's level of technology is the exact same as the US, but why? I realize it's all the rage to say that the US is going to turn into a totalitarian dictatorship at the drop of a pin, but the world just doesn't work that way. The EU and UN would probably ruin the current US economy with trade embargos, and the world as we know it today will be much worse... then China could come in and take advantage of the situation! That's not even thinking about the possibility that the UK or France would be so rash as to use nuclear weapons.

Seems to me what the US does as the 'world peacekeepers' is just the same (without the annexations). Forcing our idea of democracy is the status quo when we don't like something (remove the government, force elections, freedoms, rights, etc.). Annexing Canada and Mexico wouldn't turn the US into a totalitarian dictatorship. Once annexed, presumably, everyone in the annexed country becomes a US citizen, with the right to elect their own representatives and pretty much do and say what they want. They could try to succeed again, like Vermont does every year, but they'd fail. The US style of representative democracy would be forced upon its new citizens, along with taxes, freedoms, and federal moneys for infrastructure, schools, etc. Any military force would become a part of the US, as well. A few well placed people at the top get turned, and you've got a silent revolution.

Good one! There is nothing that Europe or Asia could do with trade emargos that would impact the US economy (other than doubling the price of oil). Most of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico, anyway. The companies that own those Canadian oil fields would probably love the idea (no more import taxes). The world would probably be stunned for about a minute... but there's nothing the rest of the world could, or would, do. Everyone would go on hating americans, someone would blow up a mosque, and your life would go on pretty much as it has always except you'd no longer need a passport to travel or work in North America (so long as you were a citizen). The 'borders' would be secure, and all border patrols could be reassigned to heavy security on airports and harbors.

China, the UK, and France have all heard of Manifest Destiny, too, I think. There'd be a rucuss in the UN. But they wouldn't even kick the US out. They'd just give them more votes.

We've got this in the Remember Outdoors forum description:

To discuss religion, partisan opinions, or personal issues, please use IRC.

But since that's in a forum description and not the AUP, I suppose that's not binding elsewhere. Something similar will be added to the AUP, within a few days.

Not true. Many conservatives would love to see some sort of amnesty solution because of the many staunch supporters who happen to be business owners who rely on the cheap labor provided by the illegals. The problem that many of them don't realize is that if the illegals suddenly become citizens, they'll demand higher wages.

So you've got some liberals who want an amnesty program and some who don't. Ditto for the conservatives. So I'd bet a dollar that nothing comes of this at all.

Annexing Canada would never happen (nor would most Americans want it ), and annexing Mexico & the Carribean would open a can of worms unlike anything we've ever seen. Yikes.

try to stay on topic, there, Cap'n

I just thought it was an interesting idea... (thus I jump in!) I'm not sure how this is any way partisan (if that's what you're insinuating) because its so off the wall... no one in their right mind would support it... but ideas sometimes do lead to other ideas... and there in lies the danger...

"I think abortion is wrong, it should be illegal"
"I think we should just nuke the middle east... let God sort them out"
"Applefritter is the best forum site on the web, hands down"

those are partisan ideas

"the US should annex all of North America"

is like saying

"Islamist extremists should be deported to the Moon"

The idea is so absurd, it can't be seriously supported... but the idea (possibly) sparks other ideas... what ifs... gesund experiments... thats all.

---edit...
whoa... I totally missed that any opinion on the illegal immigrant issue is likely to be partisan... (sorry Tom... I didn't see that forest standing there)...

That would be a bit of a disaster. I propose we follow the ideas of the Rhinoceros Party instead. To quote from the wikipedia page:

Though their entire list of campaign promises is quite worth reading.

Duly noted, and my apologies. The original intent was not to start a discussion but make a plea for someone to explain to me why illegal immigrants are raisong such a fuss about the possibility that the US may strengthen or enhance illegal immigration laws and penalties and why some folks think the US is wrong to do so. I have been searching for a deeper explanation to no avail and just hoped someone could set me right.

If it is possible to move this thread, please do so, just know that the intent was to post a gripe and ask 'why?' Had I thought I would start a little debate about annexing Canada and the wonderful things that would come from that (mmm, poutine on every corner...) I would have put it in the RO forum to begin with.