Do I need Apple DOS to run a game disk on Apple ][?

And so will Zaxxon and Zork. Every game written for the Apple II has some type of DOS on the disk that will automatically boot up and stat the game running when you turn the computer on after inserting the disk in the drive.

Only some games written for the GS need GS/OS up and running before you can start the game.

Dean

Zaxxon and Zork both spin for over 8 minutes without starting.
Defender and Choplifter boot fine follow the same "insert disk then switch on" procedure
Computer is an 48K Apple ][

Are my Zork and Zaxxon disks defective?
Any way to "read" the contents of the discs?

With an Apple II you hae interger built in. Maybe Applesoft (FP) also. It have been awhile. So you should be able to boot, bootable disks.
Did both of the disks boot before? If this is the first time you are trying to boot them from this machine you may need more than 48k. Most apple II and II+ have the 16K card.

Are your disks bad? Maybe.
Sometimes a disk need to be write protected before it will work. Sometimes it needs it on both sides, sometimes on one, and sometimes it does not matter. If they are cracked copies then yes you might be able to tell if they are bad by verifing the disk with Copy II+. If they are protected you should be able to read them by sectors, with copyII+ /bit copy/ sector edit. This is like reading little bits of different files on each track.

Take Care

I have Applesoft built in (I think). When I switch the machine on it gives me the "]" prompt and allows me to RUN simple BASIC commands. I dont get the ">" prompt.

I have a language card (I think) in the last slot and a disk ][ controller in slot 0. This means I have an extra 16K, (I think)

These are original disks, I have never been able to boot them since purchase last week. But the seller (a reputable ebay "store") understood they were working.

Regarding write protection (notch cut-off):

Choplifter - no write protection - works
Defender - no write protection - works
Zork - no write protection - does not boot
Zaxxon - write protected on one side - does not boot

Correction got it in reverse (cutting a notch makes it writeable)

The current status is:

Choplifter - no notch, hence is write protected - works
Defender - no notch, hence is write protected - works
Zork - no notch, hence is write protected - does not boot
Zaxxon - notch one side, hence is read/writeable - does not boot

An update I have tested the same system with two brand new (very old 1983 stock) in plastic wrapper games: Centipede and Ms Pacman

Centipede - no notch - works fine
Ms Pacman - no notch - does not boot (keeps spinning like the other faulty ones)

It's got nothing to do with notches/write protection in these cases. It's either bad disks or a dirty disk head.

I have ordered a disc head cleaner regardless.
I am told my Zork disc needs a 16 sector drive (controller).
How can I check if my disc drive is 16 sector or the (much more unlikely and rarer) 13 sector?
Is there any way of finding out without access to DOS?

Few if any of your other disks would have booted if your controller were 13 sector. Take a look at the part numbers on your controller chips, too...
341-0009 13 Sector drive controller P5 ROM
341-0010 13 Sector drive controller P6 ROM
341-0027 16 Sector drive controller P5 ROM
341-0028 16 Sector drive controller P6 ROM

I always thought 13 sectors were just Dos3.2. Not a product of the disk controler. I will have to when I find the time to go thur all the controllers that I have that are not in use to see if any are 13 sector.

I take it a 16 sector drive controller can boot 13 sector disks? Or do those disks have to converted to 16sectors with FID. It has been a long time so I may have mixed things up.

Take Care

I confirmed I have a 0027 and 0028 ROMs and so should be able to read 16 sector disks

The Zaxxon disk booted up fine on an Apple II GS before it was shipped to me.

It's certainly possible that your drive is marginal - in terms of read head cleanliness as well as speed calibration.

Certainly possible, given the early serial number (in the 21,000s).
But how come Choplifter, Centipede and Defender boot reliably every time?

Key word: "marginal."

After cleaning ("spit-shining") the disk head with contact cleaner, the (new) Ms. PacMan disk now boots up and plays fine. Booting is not 70-80% reliable. Sometime you have to turn it on/off once or even upto three times to get it to load. Choplifter, Defender seems to boot up at first attempt. Centipede around 90% of the time.

This increasingly looks like Dean's theory on drive head cleaning and speed is correct.

Zork and Zaxxon still do not boot, despite repeated attempts.
Zaxxon makes the screen change colour with some low res colour lines, but the game does not boot. Zork just has a blank screen.

After using a cleaning diskette now Zork boots. Zaxxon still an issue

An original Wizardry I disk which has "DOS 3.3 Apple II 48K" written on the box, will not boot.

I am assuming this means I need to pre-boot with a DOS 3.3 disk, as when I try to boot the disk directly it gives me some legible but non-sensical statements on the screen "X=345, S,P=90 etc etc" I am expecting to get a DOS 3.3 disk in a few weeks and will re-test at that point.

It's unlikely you need to pre-boot it. Games were generally self-hosting, often as part of their copy protection. The only variable left under your control is the drive rotational speed. See:
http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2FDRIVE.html#003

Where is the speed controller "mini-pot" located on the inside of a classic Apple Disk ][ Drive?

Have a read here:
http://apple2.sytes.net/Floppy_Maintenance/index.html

David - that's a very useful document. We should make it a "sticky"

Re-tested the software on a "brand new" Disk ][ drive that has been tested by an expert The programs which did not work earlier still do not work. The programs which worked earlier still work.

Also various other original packages which I have got which were tested by various sellers do not boot up either on the old or new disk. For example, Zaxxon original and dsk image from two independent sellers and using both the new and the old disk drives give me an identical vertical line screen error and then infinite spinning!

1. Games/apps which boot fine on both old and new Disk ][ drive:
Ms Pacman
Choplifer
Centipede
Defender
Bolo (dsk image copy)
Galaxian
Donkey Kong
Zork original
DOS 3.3
Graphics Magician
Apple II+ dealer test programs (very useful under the current circumstances!)

2. Games which spin indefinitely with no screen
Wizardry original
Battlezone original
Aztec original
Aztec copy
Hitchhikers copy
Deadline copy
Music Construction original
Locksmith
PFS

3. Games which only give me the welcome screen and then spin indefinitely
Karateka copy (colourful welcome screen, cracked by XXX, hit any key and it spins)
Captain Goodnight copy (same as above)
Zaxxon (just some coloured vertical lines)

Various other apps do not boot. You get the picture

The fault must be on my system setting, cards or motherboard, correct?
How can I diagnose the problem with the tools that I have? I ran the tests using the Apple II+ dealer program and RAM, ROM, keyboard came up OK? Any way to test the language/memory card in slot 0 and the disk controller card in slot 7?

I'm hoping your not saying you have your disk drive controller card installed in slot 7 because if that's where it is then that's the problem right there. The Disk II controller card should be installed in slot 6. If you do have it in slot 7 I'm surprised any of your disks booted up.

Dean

The easiest way would be to try the disk that do not work on a different system. If they work there make another copy from that system and it might work on yours. There drives may be closer to yours then the ones that made the software in the first place.

Also slot 7?

Most of the time the disk drive card is slot 6.

Use copyII+ to verfiy the tracks or files of the bad disk that are not copy protected.

Some of these disk could have gone bad and some of them might have been copied or made on drives that were slightly off. Having a perfect drive in this case does not help. Having lots of drives to try them out helps alot.

Sometimes a disk dies.

Take Care

There is a God!! Thank you Thank you.
Moved the controller over to Slot 6, now all my disks work! Even Zaxxon, my old disk replacement new disk all work. All my dsk image copies work!

The only disk that does not work is my Wizardry original disk (which I purchased from the UK)...getting X=0, Y-134 random messages. Will try to CATALOG it