B & W Mac

This is defenently the wrong forum, because a B&W Mac is not an Apple I, a hack to it or a replica of it.

Use the forum Power Macs and Software.

P.S. You should properbly use the 'Speciel install' button, to deselect what is not needed.

Moved From Apple I to Power Macs And Software

Oh sorry,

thanks for letting me know about the forum.

I actually did the special install, but I still do not have enough space, most of the 6gb drive is taken up.

Thanks

Eileen

There's a few different ways you could go.

How much space are you short? The Installer should tell you, IIRC. If you can see the existing disk when booted from DiskWarrior, you could delete a bunch of stuff until you have enough space. My existing System folder uses about half a gig.

A 6G drive is pretty tight for OS X at the best of times, but doubly so if you have Classic installed. You could pick up a new 80 to 120 gig drive for what, about $80 US? If you don't want to spend that much, ask on the Wanted forum here or the lemswap mailing list for a cheap 6 to 40 gig drive. Do a clean install on that, and keep your other disk installed as extra space. You could then keep Classic and OS X on separate boot disks, which can be handy for debugging situations like this.

Alternatively, you could back up all the stuff on the existing drive, wipe it, clean install, then restore the stuff you need from backup. There are different ways of doing that, pick the best combination for you of cost and efficiency.

1. Do B&W G3s do Firewire Target Mode? Try booting with Apple-T held down on the keyboard. If you get a flashing Firewire symbol as a startup screen rather than the big grey apple, you're in business. Find a nearby Mac or PC with Firewire, start the Mac up in Target mode, then start their machine. The G3's disk will mount on the desktop of the other computer.

If it's a PC, you'll need the free Mac disk utility from here: http://www.emulators.com/

2. Got a friend with a recent Mac with 6 gig of drivespace (or a DVD/CD burner) you can use temporarily? Do the above the other way round - start *their* machine in Target mode, then boot the B&W from *their* disk. You should then see your own disk as well as theirs on the G3's display.

3. Physically remove the HD from your machine and mount it on another, either internally if there's room/cables, or externally with a USB or Firewire drive box. PC comments in (1.) above apply.

I can't get to my disk from Disk Warrior, it says it rebuild it successfully and when I replace it. But how would I get in to delete stuff. I can't seem to get to it, to delete anything, I see all my stuff, when I preview it before I replace, Is there a way to delete from that screen on DW, the old directory and the new directory screeen right before replace?

I tried the Firewire Target Mode on the G3, but it wont boot up on that.
I have an Imac, so I am going to try it on that? Do I need a cable to connect the 2 macs for this?? I have a crossover cable it that helps. Sorry I am not very technical.
And what did you mean by booting the G3 from their disk, my Imac? how would I do that?
Can I take an internal hard drive out and connect it to my Imac with a firewire cable?

Thanks

Sorry if I am not talking in technical terms

Oh, I see you have an iMac as well, didn't read that the first time. And your reply above came while I was writing.

The crossover cable is for Ethernet, not Firewire. You need a working OS at both ends to do anything with that. You'll need a Firewire cable, with a full-size plug on both ends.

Does the iMac boot into Target mode? If so, try the second version (iMac in Target mode, then boot the G3 with Apple-Option-Shift-Delete to bypass the internal drive)

Do I have to have any cables to connect the 2 macs?

Eileen

Thanks for your paitence

No, all Macs can connect by telepathy. Shh, it's a secret.

Thanks

I am going to try that now then.

Opening my Imac in Target didk mode.

I just think it is strange 2 computers can connect with out being connected by some cable, but I do not know alot about computers anyhow. Technically anyhow.

Eileen

Ummm, the above was a joke. You need a Firewire cable of the tyoe described above.

LOL

Oops sorry I did not see the rest of the previous message.

K, I will have to get a firewire cable then.

And then try it.

Thanks alot for you help. I will let you know how I get on.

Eileen

No problem. Just make sure you get one with a fullsize plug at both ends, as some of them have a smaller plug at one end for connecting to cameras and such.

just as a note B&W g3's cannot boot from firewire. It may be able to boot into target disk mode and then have the imac mount it as an external drive and then delete/install that way? Otherwise, the hd could be put in an external firewire enclosure hooked up to the imac.

What is an external firewire enclosure?

Is it a 6pin 6 pin firewire cable I need if I am going to try target disk mode on my Imac?

The G3 will not boot up int target disk mode. I have tried pressing booting up with Apple and T key held down.

thanks

Eil

It's a box you put the hard drive in. It has a Firewire connector on the back to connect to the Mac.

Better check the iMac too.

one of the reasons your b/w isnt booting to target disk mode is because you have to hold down just T, not apple + T.

I don't believe the B&W G3 is capable of firewire target disk mode.

Well, I tried the B & W by pressing the T upon start up. NO luck.

My Imac however starts up in Target Mode.

So it is worth getting the firewire cable and trying it from my Imac, to see the G3 hard drive shows up on that??

Eileen

Check how much empty space you have on the iMac first. Or if you have a CD burner in it, you can back up stuff onto some blank CDs.

Yes, it's worth trying. But it's the other way round - the iMac in Target mode is basically pretending to be an external Firewire hard disk box.

1. Connect the two computers (BEFORE switching on) together using the Firewire cable in the Firewire ports.
2. Start the iMac in Target mode.
3. Start the B&W and hold down Apple-Option-Shift-Delete on IT'S keyboard. Keep these buttons down until you see the startup sequence commence.

You're now running the B&W using the disk inside the iMac as if it was in an external disk box. It has booted from the working operating system on the iMac's internal disk. Your G3's disk should also show up on the desktop. Don't switch off or reboot the iMac until everything is finished. Then shut down the B&W FIRST.

Now find some space on the iMac's disk (or on blank CDs) and back up the stuff you need.

Booting the G3 from the imac will not work i believe. The B&W g3's are very limited for firewire. They cannot boot from firewire or be in target disk, The firewire module acts similiar to a PCI firewire card
"Question 10: Is it possible to start up from a FireWire hard drive?

Answer: No, the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) boot ROM cannot currently support starting up from FireWire-based storage devices."
This is from the B&W g3 faq on the apple website.
I think the only option would be to take the hd out and put it in an enclosure hooked up to the imac.

Thank-you.

I am off out to office max to get the cable now.

I have tons of space on my Imac 40gb. So I should be okay.

Will let you know the results, now that I finally understand how to do it.

Cross your fingers.

Eileen

Is there any specail kind of enclosure I should get, or are they standard??

I will pick one up with the cable aswell.

Thanks

Eileen

Get a 3.5" Firewire IDE enclosure. That's all you need.

If you have the cable and an iMac, you don't need the enclosure. Just use the cable to connect the two Macs together as described above.

moosemanmoo, considering Eileen's confessed level of inexperience with hardware stuff, maybe physically removing the HD is not such good advice.

Just get the cable. It's cheaper than an enclosure, and a lot easier to use.

Oooops.

Sorry, my advice is all wrong. Please ignore my suggestion about connecting the two Macs.

More to come, I want to send this quick so I can catch you before the shopping.

OK, so correcting my previous advice, you can do it either of these two ways, depending on which you'd rather spend your money on.

First Option:

1. Get the enclosure and cable moosemanmoo described. Should cost you about $25-40.

1.1 Remove the drive from the B&W, put it in the box, connect that to the iMac, start up the iMac. Backup your stuff, onto the iMac's disk.

1.2 Put the disk back in the B&W. Start the B&W from the OS X CD, use Disk Utilty to format (ie erase) the disk, then install OS X on it.

1.3 Then use the crossover ethernet cable to transfer the stuff you want back.

Second Option:

2. Get a larger hard drive, put it in the B&W. About $40 to $80

2.1 Start up the B&W from the OS X CD, install OS X onto the *NEW* hard disk, then make it your startup disk. The files on your original disk will then be available to you from where they are now.

As you can see, the second option is a lot simpler, but it's more expensive. On the other hand, it will make your B&W much more useable, as you will have heaps more storage space, as well as two drives inside it in case this ever happens again.

The choice is yours. Both of them involve opening your computer, but luckily the B&W makes this really easy.

Ummm, make sure the power is off when you open it.

So are you saying the Target option won't work?

Also if I get a larger hard drive, will I still be able to get my stuff off the original hard drive?

and is it easy to install an internal drive?

I am so confused now.

I feel like throwing it in the trash.

but I love the computer

But I want to thank all you guys, for being so paitent, I am glad there are people like you in the world, doing something for free!

Eil

I just added some more to my reply above. I hope it answers your questions. No, the Target thing won't work, I forgot the B&W won't boot from a Firewire drive.

Installing a drive is easier than removing one and then re-installing it, which is your other option And yes, you'll be able to see the other disk.

Wait, can the B&W actually take two disks? I'm off to check. Be back in a bit.

Is it easy to install the second hard drive internally, I mean is there space for it inside my computer, I see the other hard drive in there, is there a special space for the new drive.

Thanks

E

There were two kinds of B&W. Some had a bracket for a second hard disk, some didn't. If you pop open the side case panel (power OFF ) and have a look, you might see an empty bracket under the existing hard disk.

Also check whether the IDE cable (the wide flat ribbon in back of the hard disk) has an extra connector on it (a black rectangle).

I'm really sorry about the conflicting advice before. I will try and keep my facts straight from now on. And apologies for contradicting others and not reading thoroughly.

LOl

K I have it open and I see the hardrive. it has a plug attached with 4 different coloured wires
to the hard drive, and there is another plug attached to this wire with nothing attached to it. Is this what you are talking about. Is this what I would attach the 2nd hard drive to?

E

That's for power. The wide, flat cable is for data. You need to connect both ...

... wait a second. Is the data cable plugged into the drive? Sometimes they come loose. Give it a little push to see if it's in securely.

When I talk about the "bracket" I mean the metal frame the drive is bolted into. Both kinds of B&W can *use* a second hard drive, but for some reason Apple didn't put in a mounting bracket for a second one into the first few thousand.

Yes, it looks like there is a 2nd bracket to the left of the 1st drive it looks like it has holes for the screws?

I think anyhow, the hardrive has a grey flat cable, connecting it to the motherboard I think. I checked connections seems fine.

Would it help if I took a digital pic of the inside?

Can I post pics here?

No need for pics

So it looks exactly the same as the one the existing disk is in? That's good. All we need to know now is if there is another data connector on the cable. Little black plastic rectangle like the one in the back of the existing disk.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/IDE/add_2nd_drive/

This article will tell you everything you need to know. Scroll down for the photos.

Have you tried deleting anything off the existing disk *and* emptying the trash? How much extra space do you need?

sorry to sound stupid,

but what is the data connector?

Here is what I have a hardrive with the plug attached with the 4 wires, and along these wires is another plug, like that you would plug into something.

There is a gray flat cable coming out of the hard drive, into the the mother board. and there is also another thing on the hard drive itself that you can plug something smaller into.

I am not really sure what I am looking for though.

E

I cant get to the disk to delete anything.

Diskwarrior sees the disk and mac osx panther sees the disk when I try to install (not enough space) but I cannot get to to it to delete/

E

That's the data cable. The bit of black plastic that it runs into, that looks like it's part of the hard disk, is the connector. It'll come out if you pull it (which I wouldn't do for now)

If there's another black plastic rectangle somewhere else on the IDE cable (about 1/4" across and the full width of the cable) that's what you'd push into the back of a new hard drive.

If not, that's OK, you just need to pick up a new IDE cable with two drive connectors when you pick up the drive. They're cheap.

The photos in the article linked above should help you get sorted out. I'd have a quick read of it now, then a thorough read before you install a new disk.

Don't get any disks larger than 136 GB, as your G3 won't see all of it. And make sure it's IDE or ATA, and not SATA, as that's a different connector. If you want brand advice, get a Seagate.

The cheapest thing to do would be get a second hand drive - anything 6 gigs or larger should do.

Yes I am reading the article, but how do I know if I have a vertical braket or one on top on the other hard drive bracket. Do you understand what I am asking.

Or would it just be easier to get the enclosure.

At this point I am ready for a drink

E

there is another gray data cable connectoed to the mother board, right beside the data cable connected to the hard drive. Is this what you are talking about?

E

That's the one for the CD. It's the same. You could put a second HD there, but you'd lose the CD.

You're looking for a black rectangular lump, on the same data cable that goes to the HD, but not plugged into anything itself. It might be before or after the existing HD on the cable. ie it could be between the drive and the motherboard, or it could be hanging loose out of the back of the drive.

I dont think I can see that, the only thing coming from the hard drive is the plub with the 4 wires that is attached to the hard drive, and there is another plug attached to that wire, nothing attached to that.

the gray cable that is attached to the motherboard from the hard drive has nothing on it.

so shoud I get the IDE Cable with 2 drive connector??

But knowing me, I am not seeing what I am susposed to.

I just thought pics might help you see what I have??

Eil

And there's no short length of the same cable hanging loose from the drive, with a black rectangle on the end?

Only if you can work out a place to put the second drive safely when the case is all closed up.

When they say "vertical" they mean the drive itself is oriented with the back (connecting) end and the front end vertical, and the long side edges horizontal at the top and bottom, like it's balancing on one side. If the drive is sitting flat like it would on a table, and there's an empty bracket the same size, underneath or on top, that's where the second drive would go.

You can post images in the "my image gallery" link at the top left of this page under your name.

Well, there are more steps involved, and although it's cheaper, you're spending money on something you might not use again much. That's why I thought I'd ask if there was space for a second drive.

But sure, it would work. And if there's no room for a second drive, it would be your best option. Adding a second internal drive to a B&W that wasn't designed for one can be done, but it's a pain in the neck.

Coffee break

Aye caramba, some thread!

Alright, here's another thing to try - reset the nvram.

Startup into openfirmware by holding down key combo cmd-opt-O-F right after startup.
at prompt type
"reset-nvram" (without quotes of course, and then hit the enter key)
it'll say "OK"

on older Macs the above won't work, try:
"init-nvram"

next do this:
"reset-all" (and enter)
and it'll restart

dan k

Oh yeah. Sometimes the boot instructions get mangled. Try that.

Sorry, I've never owned a B&W case, just a motherboard So I'm not familiar with what the different mounting options look like.

It's probably better if you chase up your own information and then ask back here if dan k's suggestion doesn't work. Here are some more links:

G3 FAQ with lots of second-drive stuff (also known as "slave" drive)
Which G3 do I have?
Adding a slave drive

- looks like adding a *permanent* second drive may not be such a hot idea if you have a Rev 1 B&W, but it's still the easiest way to transfer stuff over to a new drive, and you can always do it with the case open and the drives loose until the transfer is complete. If you have a Rev 2, you can keep both drives in there without any problem.

If working all this stuff out is getting too complicated, the Firewire drive box method will work either way. You can always keep the box and stick any old IDE/ATA drive in it later for a handy backup and file transfer device.

General B&W G3 info and links

Nope resetting the Nrram did not work

And I followed all instructions.

But no luck.

So what, the internal drive or the enclosure case

Office max had none of the above so I am worn out now.

Eileen I guess I will have to get it on line.

Well if you want my suggestion: Get yourself a cheap used 10 or 20 gig internal drive from someone here. Look in the For Sale and/or post a note in the Wanted forum. It'll give you a lot more room to move on that G3. With the disk nearly full like it is now, OS X starts to go all screwy.

I've only skimmed through this thread quickly,and sorry, I don't have time to read it closely, much less understand what's being discussed, but I've had three B&W's, still got two, and have spent too much of my life dealing at times with boot problems. I'm trying to think of what I'd do in your situation. If the Panther disc recognizes the harddrive and can mount and run utilities on it, but then the harddrive doesn't boot...hmmm. First off, the obvious: Is the PRAM battery dead? Since it sounds like you haven't done anything out of the ordinary with the machine, the next thing I would suspect is that one of the other drives is bad, the CD drive or the zip drive and one of those is running a conflict with the harddrive, so I would disconnect the ATA cable that connects those two drives to the motherboard and try to start it up. That's the cable right next to the cable that connects the harddrive to the motherboard and looks identical to the harddrive cable. If that doesn't work, then I would zap the PRAM four times in succession. Zapping the PRAM just once on the B&W doesn't do the trick, you really have to zap it three or fours times to clean out the PRAM, and then wait for it to find a system, which can take as long as five minutes, or even more. If the harddrive doesn't come one, then I would put the Panther disc in again, restart holding down C to startup from the disc, and then remount and run the utility and select the harddrive as startup disk (I don't remember if you can actually select startup disc with install CD's), and then try restart. If that didn't work, I'd start doing the second harddrive business. You didn't mention what kind of PCI cards you have in the machine. Just the ATI video card?
Oh, and there's one other dastardly culprit in the B&W--the firewire module. B&W firewire modules are notorious for going bad and causing your system not to load. In order to remove the firewire module there is one screw holding it to the backplate and one screw holding it to a post on the motherboard, and then disconnect its little powercord, and then you can wiggle the module right off its connector to the motherboard. The machine will run fine without the firewire module. It took me weeks of frustration once to isolate a non-loading system situation to a faulty firewire module, but that was a situation where the system would start loading and then hang, so it wasn't exactly like your problem. I now remove the modules, good or bad, and rely on PCI firewire cards instead for firewire. Anyways, good luck.

Well, to update everyone and DRbrunsen.

Well I decided to go with the enclosure. So I eventually got the hard drive from the G3
pretty easy once I thought about it logically. I then put it in the enclosure (Nexar 2) did not give instructions, but I figured it out. Now the G3 is mounted on my desk top.
I am copying the whole G3 drive to my desktop and then I will delete some stuff off there,
and put it back in the G3 and install panther, and see if I can get the G3 running. I did not have enough space the last time, but I have now. I am pleased that I worked it out, now I have all my old files etc. And I want to thank everyone for their help on this matter.

Eileen

If you're talking about the Maxtor 6GB harddrive that came standard with the B&W's, you'd be a lot better off just throwing it away and getting a new, bigger, better drive. The 6GB should be near the end of its life, especially if it's had major problems already. You don't want to get caught up in another incident with it, which would be a likely re-occurrence--I should say guaranteed reoccurrence. A 40 or 80 GB drive would work fine. Larger than those you'd need an ATA PCI controller card. I think the limit without a controller card is 120GB.