IIGS just recieved.

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It's just totally unheard of that an Ebay seller would actually LIE to drive up the price for a computer system with a top description "WORKS" in the title.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121565655819
I won this system and received it yesterday.
and here are the photo's of the motherboard.
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/photo/6118803862513158402
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/photo/6118803911512531186
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/photo/6118803961736630418
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/photo/6118804020265262130
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/photo/6118804073642754274

I would appreciate any advice on good methods to clean this gunk off , my first thought is vinegar and or baking soda.
and I am going to need to find schematics to find replacements for the cap's and other parts.
all of your help and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Just a little request here, it's the first time I am trying to share photo's to the forum ,I would like to know if you folks can see them alright or if I need to tryout a different photo host, TY.

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gsmcten's picture
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Re: IIGS just recieved.

666JTK666,

I would like to look at the pictures, but your links are not working.
I keep getting a Google ERROR saying I do not have access.
You might try uploading to here.

Steven Smile

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

I am sorry but I don't seem to understand how to properly post pictures to the forum.
When I click on the little picture icon I see this

"[inline:attached_image_#]"

there is no dialog to actually find the pictures on my computer.
Am I to just paste the full path to the photo example c:\pictures\xxx.jpg
or am I to do something else?

Does this link work ?
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/albums/6118803812616298113?authkey=CP6Wxe7K_eLAZQ

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

666JTK666 wrote:

I am sorry but I don't seem to understand how to properly post pictures to the forum.
When I click on the little picture icon I see this

"[inline:attached_image_#]"

there is no dialog to actually find the pictures on my computer.
Am I to just paste the full path to the photo example c:\pictures\xxx.jpg
or am I to do something else?

Does this link work ?
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/albums/6118803812616298113?authkey=CP6Wxe7K_eLAZQ

I watched that auction. Damn, there is not a chance in hell you can see from those auction photos the damage you show in yours. My advice? contact the seller and tell them you want to return it. Does not matter they did not offer returns, you can open a case with eBay if he/she will not take it back because the item was not as described. That is grounds for a full refund regardless of whether or not the seller offered returns with their auction.

By the way, all of your links work. The photos you attached in your initial post work perfectly as does the link in your next post.

Question, does the machine start up? If it does, then it technically works. If it does not, you clearly have grounds for a complaint. eBay will ask you to try and work it out with the seller first. After that fails (if it fails) when you escalate the claim they will try to contact the seller directly. If all else fails it will be their decision based on the available information.

While you have certainly already started, take even more detailed photos, like photos of the machine NOT working.

I have yet to have an issue with eBay buyer protection (I have yet to have a buyer take issue with one of my auctions)
As a buyer I have had numerous items come so poorly packed they were literally destroyed in shipping and have more than once have an item arrive not as described. In the probably 10 times I have had this happen only twice did it take eBay to resolve it in the end. Most sellers are very willing to work on fixing an issue, especially when it is a mistake or poor packing.

This instance? Who knows. While not a prolific seller they have nothing but 100%positive feedback in the past and present.

Reach out to them, show them your issues (and again, does it work?) and go from there. You may be surprised, I have been, several times in fact.
Zan

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Man, that's obscene!

Yeah, open a claim with PayPal right now and include those pictures.

We need to get vendors like that off eBay.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

That logic board looks like it's been hit with radioactive waste.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

WOW!!!

What a mess!

Return it.

Steven Smile

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

1st of all that offer was betray....
this mainboard did not start up within the last years....
2nd the spill results from dmaged Accumulator or battery that has leaked....
that acid also damages the traces below.....
3rd the 3 small capacitors closest to the battery section have leaked and are severely damaged
4th That´s a typical case to complain to ebay and demand full refund....

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Agree with everyone on asking the seller for a return. At the price you paid and the description, I think you can at least expect it power up, but it's probably not reasonable to expect that everything works 100%. I run into very few sellers (other than very new sellers, or obvious scammers) that I believe are intentionally deceptive, it doesn't really help, eBay forces sellers to accept returns, and as of recently even pay for all return shipping in some cases. So unless they have a lot of buyers that just don't care, it's going to cost a lot more to lie than to be honest. If you have any difficulty returning the item, feel free to let me know, I unfortunately have too much experience on both ends of this.

It appears from the picture that the item did boot. It's not clear if that's the same machine (or even if any of those pictures were taken recently), but it appears from the items in the background that those pictures were taken in the same place, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and guess that the machine did at least power on when he tested it, and he didn't know to check the board for damage. Did you by any chance try to power it on? If it were me, I would contact him with the pictures, tell him that you are weary of powering it on with the damage to the board (or that it didn't work if you did try) and ask how he wants to handle it. If he doesn't want to work with you, you can file a significantly not as described case and eBay will force him to accept the return if you feel he was inaccurate in the description. If it does turn on, then I guess it meets the definition of 'working', it does seem he should work with you at least a little because of the obvious board damage. If it powered on, I'm not sure what I'd do in this case as the buyer, since I'd be very disappointed with the purchase, but not sure the seller did anything wrong, it was sold with no returns, and described as working. I'd probably try to figure out from the messages what the guys intentions were and go from there, if I felt the guy knew of the issues I'd make sure he is forced to take it back.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Wow.. Even my elite PCB reconstruction skills would be tested restoring that. Open a case and complain till you get a full refund including shipping. There's no way to really see the corrosion in the original auction photos.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

I have been in contact with the seller and it is not been the greatest example of peace love and understanding..
To be completely fair I am posting mine and his messages.
My first message to him.
Start
This computer system is not in working condition, please see the attached photos. This damage to the main logic board is old, years old, by the look of it.
(please notice the rust all over the RFI shielding in the case.)
I have no interest in trying to return this system to you as I Intend to try and repair this computer. however I find this deception by your statement that this computer "Works!" in-order to encourage higher bid's for this item than it would otherwise receive frankly chaps my behind.
I propose this to resolve this issue, you shoot me a check for $50.00 when it clears I will post positive feedback and we can just sweep it under the rug and let it go.
End

even though the board is in bad shape I felt that there was a good chance to repair it, and I felt that a partial refund was fair after all he included with the computer is an 800k drive,keyboard,mouse,cables,and some system disks.

OK now his reply to me.

Start
Hi,

There are a number of issues with your proposal.

First, I would like you to be aware of the eBay Feedback Extortion Policy: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/feedback-extortion.html?afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

Second, on 2/8 (the day I listed the item) I took video of how long it took The Print Shop to start, create a flyer, and print it using the IIGS system in your posession (along with the printer and monitor that I sold separately): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXiIor2SZD8

I stand behind my listing. The system was most certainly in working condition when it was listed for sale, and my title was not misleading in any way. I included motherboard photos upon request of other bidders -- they do not reflect any of the damage you're claiming.

Please leave feedback as you see appropriate.
END

Well it's obvious that he thinks that I am attempting to cheat or deceive him and he does not believe that the board is damaged at all. his link to the video on Utube made me cringe , If this really is the same computer the possibility of greater damage to the computer as it was running kinda freaked me out.

OK my next message to him.
Start
I haven't dared put power to this system out of fear of doing further damage to the computer and I won't until I can determine if the board corrosion can be removed (if I am successful) I can then determine all the parts that need to replaced. hopefully on my part it will only be a few capacitors and resisters.
As to your photo's of the motherboard you took. The power supply was covering up all this corrosion and damage. please see the attached photo's.
also please note that this particular main logic board is a service replacement these board have 2 unique features these are 1. there are 2 power supply jacks one for the apple IIe (a brown boxy looking thing top just to the left of the normal gs power supply jack).and one for the IIGS and 2. is that there is a keyboard encoder slot present this is a small grey box on the board. if you would compare your photo you took of the board to the ones I will attach here you will see they are the same. (on your photo of the board you have the power supply installed and the IIe power jack is hidden underneath it) a generic IIgs mlb would not have these features.
I am not seeking to extort you I am seeking to resolve what I feel was a wrong done to me.
I have already made one pass at cleaning up the corrosion I am quite pleased with my results. You can actually see the service part tag now a few more cleaning passes and I should be able to identify all the parts that will need replacing.
Thank you for the link to the Utube video this actually gives me greater hope that with a little TLC I will have a working system.
I honestly did not think there would be anything other than pointless finger pointing and accusation's on both our parts.
I have attempted regardless to resolve this well so be it. however I will not only be posting my transaction details here on Ebay but also on every current Apple II forum I currently attend as a warning to others.
End

Well not my most lucid communication but well there it is.. We haven't spoken to each other since.
I left feedback that I felt was appropriate and that is the end to it.

I have made my first cleaning pass and it looks pretty good. I am using water,baking soda and a soft toothbrush. I have posted a few new photo's of the results. I will be making another 2-3 cleaning passes then start desoldering the damaged components. If anyone has any suggestions for a cleaning agent better than baking soda please please speak up.
I don't know if the link to my photo album has changed since I added new photos so here it is again.
https://plus.google.com/photos/111563806244311670919/albums/6118803812616298113

If it's not too much trouble I would really appreciate it if someone would look at there board and check what the capacitor values are for c20,21,22 and there is another cap close to the battery that's a bit larger then the other 3 but not as large as the c6 cap.
I am afraid I am a diabetic and once objects get so small it all just blur's out. Thank you for your help!!

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

666JTK666 wrote:

<< REAL BIG SNIP >>

If it's not too much trouble I would really appreciate it if someone would look at there board and check what the capacitor values are for c20,21,22 and there is another cap close to the battery that's a bit larger then the other 3 but not as large as the c6 cap.
I am afraid I am a diabetic and once objects get so small it all just blur's out. Thank you for your help!!

I bought a ROM 00 ][gs about 5 years ago, very unreliable, so I bought 3 Refurbished ][gs ROM 01 Motherboards, and swapped one of them into the ROM 00 Case..

C20, C21, C22 and C60 are all 22uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

C06 and C61 are both 1000uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

http://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-gs-rom-00-motherboard

I will check my ROM 01 board to see if the Capacitors are different...

Edit: ROM 01 board the same, C60 is 22uf 16 Volt just like C20, C21 and C22.

MarkO

ggb
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Re: IIGS just recieved.

I just looked at the Youtube clip and noticed that it was only posted on the 22 Feb. When the screen shows the first boot text, you don't seen the IIgs being turned on at the back. After the screen shows the boot text you are able to briefly see the LED on the front of the IIgs and it doesn't appear to be lit. Putting everything together it would make you question if the IIgs does work. You should have probably turned it on when you got it, then you would have clear reason to complain. You photo's do match up with the ebay photos if you compare the three stamps in the middle of the IIgs system board.
So good luck.

GeoffB

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Quote:

This computer system is not in working condition, please see the attached photos. This damage to the main logic board is old, years old, by the look of it.
(please notice the rust all over the RFI shielding in the case.)
I have no interest in trying to return this system to you as I Intend to try and repair this computer. however I find this deception by your statement that this computer "Works!" in-order to encourage higher bid's for this item than it would otherwise receive frankly chaps my behind.
I propose this to resolve this issue, you shoot me a check for $50.00 when it clears I will post positive feedback and we can just sweep it under the rug and let it go.

That wasn't very tactful -- I can understand why the sellers reply wasn't as helpful (or pleasant) as you hoped. You kind of came out on offense, assuming the seller was cheating you.

The damage was obstructed from view by the power supply and not everyone pops those out, especially casual (i.e. ignorant) sellers. The seller clearly isn't a retro-computing specialist -- they sell misc 'junk'. Anyone who is serious about this hobby knows those batteries sometimes leak -- and they know to ask for a full, unobstructed view of the main logic board.

I would have given the seller the benefit of the doubt and approached them for help -- either in the form of a return, or a polite request to work with them on the sell price. The seller would probably have worked amicably with you on a partial refund vs. eating the entire return.

Well, best of luck with that board. It's going to need love and mad skills to restore.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Quote:

That wasn't very tactful -- I can understand why the sellers reply wasn't as helpful (or pleasant) as you hoped. You kind of came out on offense, assuming the seller was cheating you.

The damage was obstructed from view by the power supply and not everyone pops those out, especially casual (i.e. ignorant) sellers. The seller clearly isn't a retro-computing specialist -- they sell misc 'junk'. Anyone who is serious about this hobby knows those batteries sometimes leak -- and they know to ask for a full, unobstructed view of the main logic board.

I would have given the seller the benefit of the doubt and approached them for help -- either in the form of a return, or a polite request to work with them on the sell price. The seller would probably have worked amicably with you on a partial refund vs. eating the entire return.

Well, best of luck with that board. It's going to need love and mad skills to restore.

I agree I did not handle this situation well, I let my temper make me talk out of my behind, I was so sure that the seller had deliberately been deceptive in order to drive up the bid for a defective system.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Quote:

I bought a ROM 00 ][gs about 5 years ago, very unreliable, so I bought 3 Refurbished ][gs ROM 01 Motherboards, and swapped one of them into the ROM 00 Case..

C20, C21, C22 and C60 are all 22uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

C06 and C61 are both 1000uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

http://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-gs-rom-00-motherboard

I will check my ROM 01 board to see if the Capacitors are different...

Edit: ROM 01 board the same, C60 is 22uf 16 Volt just like C20, C21 and C22.

MarkO

HUGE Thank You!!!
you have just saved me a lot of quality time with a magnifying glass.
I am placing an order today for the replacement parts I think are necessary.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

666JTK666 wrote:
Quote:

I bought a ROM 00 ][gs about 5 years ago, very unreliable, so I bought 3 Refurbished ][gs ROM 01 Motherboards, and swapped one of them into the ROM 00 Case..

C20, C21, C22 and C60 are all 22uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

C06 and C61 are both 1000uf 16 Volt Electrolytic Capacitors.

http://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-gs-rom-00-motherboard

I will check my ROM 01 board to see if the Capacitors are different...

Edit: ROM 01 board the same, C60 is 22uf 16 Volt just like C20, C21 and C22.

MarkO

HUGE Thank You!!!
you have just saved me a lot of quality time with a magnifying glass.
I am placing an order today for the replacement parts I think are necessary.

Your Welcome....

The Unit of Measure is "Mu", and might be written as Microfarad..

Also, this piece of info is valuable too.

MarkO

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Besides you might think about executing the tasks marked in parts of your pictures:

with the isopropanol alcohol you should be able to remove rests of the acid spill.

But the acid had plenty time to intrude into the soldering joints. This leads to
internal coroding of the soldering material and to later malfunction.

Therefor the only real solution will be, to clean out the affected solderingjoints
by sucking out the affected soldering material by desoldering and then resoldering
with clean new soldering material.

When replacing the electrolytic capacitors pay attention !
Inspect your pictures to make sure that you insert them by correct polarity !
otherwise your capacitors will popup like popcorn at next poweron and
soon explode spilling again all internal bor-acid all over the place !
just my 5 cents...

i wish you good luck !
sincerely speedyG

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Oh Man… pass the eye bleach! I've been down the road of post-capacitocalypse before. If it were me, I would just clean it up and turn it into an art project, then replace the entire logic board. There is no telling the extent of the corrosive damage that lies beneath the surface, but given the amount of damage visible in the photos, unless you're someone who enjoys a Chernobyl-esque challenge, I predict that you will have greater chances of success trying to rebuild the logic board from scratch using stone-age tools and ancient schematics than trying to repair that thing. Even if SpeedyG could somehow clone himself and lend you seven hands, that is going to take some serious time and dedication to restore, and even then, you may find that it is still not 100% stable afterwards. I'm not trying to dissuade you from it if you have your heart set on the project, and I totally understand if you do. I just know from personal experience how yucky (and potentially disappointing) it's going to be. I, for one, will never go down that road again.

Also, I think others are probably right in their assessment that the eBay seller was probably just clueless rather than villainous. It goes without saying that you never know what you'll end up with, despite reputations and feedback. Other than KFest, another really good place to acquire Apple II parts/systems from someone who knows what they are talking about is Apple Rescue of Denver. Kind people with a warehouse full of wonders.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Based on the results of this Thread, and other information. I think it's time to form an "Informal Organization":

The Conservator-Restorer and Digital Antiquarian Society

The first couple things I can think of are:

A formal understanding of Electronics and Media and how to Store, Package and Ship them.

Documentation and Succession Plans, so that when the Curator is "no longer with us", that the Items in their Care are not Recycled for Scrap.. Or worse, sent to the Landfill..

Honest and Reputable Sellers on eBay and other sites can become a Certified Member, with a "Seal of Approval", so you know that Computer you just bought will get to you in One Piece, or at least no worse than when it was packaged up...

Other Sellers can be Directed to Educational Materials on how to Inspect, Package and Ship such Items...

MarkO

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

MarkO wrote:

Based on the results of this Thread, and other information. I think it's time to form an "Informal Organization":
The Conservator-Restorer and Digital Antiquarian Society

The first couple things I can think of are:

A formal understanding of Electronics and Media and how to Store, Package and Ship them.

Documentation and Succession Plans, so that when the Curator is "no longer with us",
that the Items in their Care are not Recycled for Scrap.. Or worse, sent to the Landfill..

MarkO

Well just a reminder to some former threads on similar topics:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/how-do-i-send-program-floppy-image-asimov
http://www.applefritter.com/content/information-heritage-what-have-you-done-preserve-valuable-information
http://www.applefritter.com/content/book-scans
http://www.applefritter.com/content/cleaning-motherboard
http://www.applefritter.com/content/there-list-pokepeekcall-commands
http://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-internet-sources-going-offline
http://www.applefritter.com/content/best-hardware-diagnostics-software

just a remarkable other one:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/windfall-british-user-magazine-scanned-and-loaded-asimov
remarkable because after i have scanned that 5 years of the magazines and uploaded the scans to asimov....
well after few months the scans have been dropped off from asimov.....

in that moment the one or other guy will start to think about the sense of scanning entire
anuals of magazines if few months later that archives are dropped off from a site claiming to be active
in archiving and conservation "business"...... and it´s not only happening to that anual scans....
i have started to download and save disks from asimov - after i discovered bunches of them to be removed
from the site after period of time - and that have not been results off "cleaning off doubled issues"
nope .... some of them had never been seen again in any other site....

sad because some of them have been related to special hardware ( interface cards ) and never have been
seen again after that in any of the other mirror sites....

that makes at least me loose my faith and trust in asimov....
and that - at least in my believe - makes it worth also to become topic of the discussion....

question: who decides at which site what is worth to be kept as heritage and what´s not kept as heritage ?

just my 5 cents...

But also just finally to MarkO: This thread isn´t related to heritage and the the topic´s you mentioned.
We( including me) should keep this thread clean to it´s topic from the title and stay away from hijacking it with
such postings.... therefor my proposal to leave it in the original topic of 666JTK666....
there is a thread listed above and really dedicated to the heritage topic... the last 2 postings belong to the other thread.... ( second link above )
it´s better to reopen that thread and post there the stuff of the last 2 postings in this thread....

here is the business about the recovery task of the IIGS of 666JTK666 and bad habits in ebay....
i at least prefer to keep it that way .... there might be more stuff to be posted from 666JTK666
while the restoring process proceeds...

speedyG

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Speedy,

Don't forget the Mountain Expansion Chassis Thread.
Lots of info there for everyone.

Steven Smile

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

quickthyme wrote:

Oh Man… pass the eye bleach! I've been down the road of post-capacitocalypse before.

What's a capacitocalypse? Tongue

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

insanitor wrote:

What's a capacitocalypse? Tongue

Britisch Humor ?
Brittanic lyric ?
maybe both ! Cool

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the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Quote:

What's a capacitocalypse? Tongue

capacitocalypse - (n)
An event involving destruction or damage on an awesome or catastrophic scale due to the electrolyte being vented from one or more electrolytic capacitors.

Upon opening his Apple II case and discovering several small reptiles practicing kung-fu amidst the rust colored ooze, Larry realized, without a doubt, that the capacitocalypse had finally arrived.

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Re: IIGS just recieved.

Hello quickthyme,
a great picture raises upfront my inner eyes celebrating the Chuck Norris 75th birthday:
the very last defenseline trying to protect the poor traces from fainting away to outer universe
by jumped roundhouse kicks against aliens of bor acid.

reminds me to the joke:
a snake has bitten Chuck...... after 4 agonizing days the snake passed away with terrible pain attacks....

I just hope they don´t track me down as nightmare in my dreams...

speedyG

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In early days I had a lot of money but no time - now I have no money but a lot of time....
the second part includes less friends but a lot more joy on life....