Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

sorry, I edited that wrongly - try again -!

Hi

sometime ago I posted about an issue on a PAL iie enhanced; it seems to output B&W video only. At the time the outcome was the PAL machines may still only actually output NTSC, or NTSC 50hz, so my PAL-Only CRT likely was going to show color, only B&W.

My own outcome was, as my PAL CRT monitor was known not to sync to a NTSC signal, to give up on that until i had an NTSC capable monitor.

a year later I'm in canada and i have a NTSC monitor and an PAL LCD tv that definitely handles pal and ntsc(several versions, 3.58 etc). But still there's no color!

so

-has anyone got /seen a pal iie outputing color at all?

-name a few games that are color for sure in case I'm running B&W only software.

-what now. I do have a spare motherboard from a iie platinum, I could swap that in and test that.

- I'm connecting the iie's built in compositive video out, one phono<>phone lead straight into the monitor or tv. no special leads are required for colour are they?

The only thing I'm doing thats odd, although its not upset any of my other PAL retro computers at all - is that my 11e is 240v 50 hz and I'm running them on a step up transformer ie 110v, but now 60hz. Hope thats unrelated.

ideas?

cheers, Iain

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

I´ll just checkout the circuitplans and then reply - meanwhile checkoutyour pm´s.....

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

Hello ininjh,

now back to the problem i´ve got some good news and some bad news to you:

recalling the problem at the morning coffee the first point to spot out after viewing the circuit plans the good news:
only very few chips are related to the problem, as result that apple completly made attempt to compress the video-
signalprocess to save space and chips to very few chips - but - like everything in life thats bad news too.. because the
two main chips related with the problem are the HAL-chip and the IOU-chip -> and that means there might be trouble ahead to get replacement-chips. In case its the IOU-chip you might have the chance to get one from another board
( while other part of the board is killed but the IOU chip remained alive ) or you get connection to another user that was related to apple and has a spare chip on the shelf or a former dealer has one in his old replacement stock...
(a hint - i believe to remember that within the posts here some other user had a problem with the IOU chip when
upgrading the enhancement kit ... so try to find that post - he cleimed that he had a dealer that had the IOU an the shelf...
) the HAL-chip is a less tough challenge due to the fact that it is a so called PAL-chip. These are still availible and a technician with the correct equipment might be able to burn that logic-chip, if he gets in touch with the correct file containing the correct matrix... ( again a hint: if i remember well, i´ve seen that file within one of the appleIInet sources as a binary file for download.... and i´ll checkout my own archive to to hunt for that file.... in that case i´ll send a pm within the next 2 or 3 days with a like how to get the file or some kind of solution how to solve... - but i prefer to get a solution that enables you to get the job done at your location... - the very last chance would be that i burn the chip, because i have the equipment to do that but it´s not realy good solution due to the fact that i´m in germany and that kind of solution would cuase a lot of delay due to transportationtime and rather expensive transportation cost.... )

on the other hand there are some other issues to checkout before taking attemt to the above mentioned solutions...
first please download the PDF-file that i´ve created to explain some technical points from:

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/applefritter/IIeVideo.htm

or by using the dirckt link to the file:

http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/applefritter/IIedisplay.pdf

and print out the document ... this post refers to that document so it will be more of more comfort to have it
at hand and view there at specific points of the post the corresponding pages...

first read the pages 1 and 2 of the document... they explain rather detailed the way a IIe generates the video signal
and spots out the related chips.

The pages 3, 4 and 5 describe the general checkout if absolutely no video is availiable... this isn´t your problem but
the Fig. 7-14 at page 4 shows all circuits related to the video signal generation and the list below shows the chip types
and the matrix data to locate them on the board as well as the Fig. 7-15 on page 5
that explains the location on the
board of the IIe. Don´t bother about the place that the auxiliary 80-col card slot is shown in the picture, because there are different kinds of boards where this slot is located, but that does not affect the location of the chips that are here of interest. There is another reason that i put this in the doc - because some of the chips take affect to the timing but are not shown in the later part of the document but they are mentioned in my later explanations....

the pages 6 and 7 are related directly to the color - page 6 covers the "color burst signal" that i mentioned in the last post. Page 7 covers the problem if the colors get displayed but are not correct.. so this will be at this point of less interest.

Before we step in to the hardware of the computer i´ll have to explain some specific basic knowledge and some
checks to be executed before touching the computer itself. If your lucky the might solve the problem without the need
to open the case of the computer....

first of all: apple distributed the IIe in different versions that have been issued to be used in different countries and after all if you don´t know the very special variation of your board and the source from where the board came from you should bear in mind that computers might have traveled somehow... probably if the computer had in earlier days some kind of service probably even the ralated chips might have traveled causing strange results.
therefor first one basic: up to my knowledge in the IIe´s only 2 types of IOU-chips have been used - the one designed for NTSC-signaling ( US Version ) and the one designed for PAL-signaling ( european version ). both kinds may have traveled across the ocean vice or versa. A general hint will be to determine the variation by taking a look to the power supply, because the US version was destributed with a 110 Volt power supply and the european version was distributed with a 220 Volt supply. Up to one point i must confess that I´m not able to give an answer, but probably someone else may be able to determin that: [u]I don´t know if apple also made a special IOUchip for the french market or for the former communist countries like hungary, poland. These countries use the SECAM-signaling and it might be that that could cause a problem.[/u]
But to my knowledge there where only two versions - NTSC and PAL and the french people needed a german Television to use the PAL-version of the apple..... I´ll therefor leave the SECAM-problem besides... the next basic is that the signal provided at the videooutput of the apple is a so called FBAS-Videosignal that also might also be used with a Monitor instead of a Television. It is just also possible to use a so called RGB-Monitor to get colored display if that Monitor has a fitting input ( for example the old legendary Philips series CM11342 or the CM88xx ).

Up to your posting i will asume that you are using a real television-set the has normal input via antenna and you are using that display by some kind of the input plugs.... either antenna or FBAS ( S-Video ) Input.
-first- you should examine the manual or the setup screen of the television to get to the setup and checkout that the correct settings have been made. Some televisions offer in the setup the choice to set the input to NTSC or to PAL... so choose the correct setting ( in case that you are not sure which kind of IOU-chip is on the board just try the alternate setting too ! always remind that an former user might have only used monochrome display and he might have replaced the IOUchip with the wrong typ of chip... he still would have got monochrome display and thought everything was right but never has checked out if the color was working ... )
- second - you should also examine the setting of the FBAS-Input of the Television if you are using a chinch videocable instead of the antenna cable ( ther might be probably the choice in the setup to switch between FBAS or S-Video or YPbPr or CMY.
first choice is FBAS second choice is S-Video - if the cable has on the apple side chich an at the television a Mini DIN plug with 4 pins and a plastik knob to prevent from inserting the plug wrong-way ).
- third- you should checkout the precise setup of the channel at the television... a slight move in the frequency might cause the loss of the colorinformation in the signal. In most televisions there is a posibility to vers slightly slip up or down few percent of the found frequency which might cause the colorproblem to fade away....
- forth - step would be to check out the used cable... probably the cable is broken inside and causes partial loss of the signal or at least a severe weakening of the signal.

If these four steps don´t solve the problem then the first approach to the inside of the apple will be neccessary.

Before exchanging the entire motherboard there will be some few tests that can be carried out due to the fact that you have another IIe board....

- fifth - according to the page 6 of the document that you picked up you might very carefully change the IOU chip. Its the large one marked black in fig. 7-30 at the upper left edge of the document. Before you do that of course the power must be switched off and you should also mark with a CD-writing marker with softtip at the front the mainboard at the socket to figure out the orientation of the chip ( where the carveout marking is at the top of the chip - because this indicates where pin 1 of the chip is ). The orientation is the same like the MMU chip besides and the carveout mark on the chip should point to the direction of the keyboard ! Probably the mainboard has like the most mainboards a white surrounding marking on the board itself that indicates the position of that notch.
If you don´t have the correct IC-pullout tool you will have to be very carefull not to harm the chip while pulling it out of the socket.. the best choice is to insert at one side very gentle the small blade of a pcketknife between chip and socket and very gently lift up the chip some few degrees - then insert the blade at the other side of the chip and lift up very gentle that side too and then gently lift up the entire chip. Be very carefull to not harm any of the legs of that chip or to cause harm to the mainboard or socket otherwise you turn either the chip or the mainboard to waste ! place the chip immediatly on an antistatic device foam without touching the pins ! Then carry out the same procedure with the chip at the spareboard and immediatly place very carefully the chip to this board. Be sure that none of the legs of the chip is bent or not straight ! Checkout that every pin really is gently slipping in the correct hole of the socket before you really push in the chip ! Most problems occur with slightly bent legs that slip during the insertinon process away beneath the chip and that are not recognized by simple view. It it therefor upmost importatnt before switching on power to inspect the correct insertion very accurat probably even with a magnifying glass ! Be sure that the chip is inserted in the correct orientation with the notch at the correct side - otherwise switching the power on will destroy that chip nearly instantly within less than one second !

when after inspection powering up the computer wait only up the regular time till the beep from the computer is exspected and start the computer without any drivecontrollers inserted ! this forces the computer to boot very quick and to display very quick the appletext and the prompt. If the powerup sequence exceeds more ethan 20% of the expected time to beep and display shut off power immediatly and go through the entire fifth step above and examine every single point again ! If the computer boots correct and beep occurs correct and prompt is shown in the display you might turn off power and insert the floppycontroller and the other cards and start up regular with booting from floppy.

Then you might checkout again point one to four and find out if the problem is solved.

- sixth - If it is not solved you might try next to exchange the HAL-chip that is marked black in the fig.7-40 at the right bottem og page 7 of the document and carry out all the points explained in the fifth step - with only one difference: due to the fact that the HAL-chip is smaller than the IOU-Chip you should use a rather small screwdriver to lift the chip. Don´t forget to markup the orientation of the chip before lifting it !

After exchanging the chip the same precautions and steps are executed like in the powerup sequence above ( again first without any cards and with limited period of time and same inspection of the correct fitting of the legs of the chip in the socket !

If that solves the problem you might again power of the computer and change back the IOU-Chip and again run along the same procedures to determine if its only the HAL-chip to be damaged ( because if the old IOU-chip is back again and only the HAL-chip is still remaining to be changed then you will be sure that the IOU-Chip is operating correct and you only need replacement of the HAL-chip.

The colourtest might be determined with several kinds of software. The best choice will be the Apple IIe Dealers Disk that includes a videotest with examination of the different lowres and hires pages and the different colours to display - it also give you chance to examine if the adjustment of the tv set or the monitor are correct ( for example that white lines don´t split to red,green and blue due to bad alignment on the display ).
the image of thet disk is availible at different locations within the archives at the apple community and might be generated with the aid of ADT ).
When afterwards checking the colors with games or software the choice would be to Zork, Chivalry or a painting program like mousepaint....

If up to this point the problem remaines unsolved there are few options left:
- seventh - you might probably try to replace capacitor C32 and Inductor L3 as discribed at page 6 of the document of course with power turned off !
And in that case it might be usefull to resolder the soldering points of the related components ( IOU-chip socket, HAL-chip socket - and it will be wise choice to unplug that chips and keep them on antistatic foam while carrying out this task to avoid heatdamage or electrical harm to the chips...
it is importatnt to carry out this task without harming the board and the other components with electrical shock from the soldering iron ( so it might in case of missing experience- be wise to ask an experienced friend or technician to assist that task ). Don´t overheat the board or the soldering points ! Only use solderingiron with less than 35 Watt power and with pentyptip !

The resoldeing is just to make sure that another problem is not the cause to the malfunction. Due to the age of the boards and the used solderinglead by age this solderingpoints may have turned bad for several reasons - first might be a bad solderingpoint that occured in the factory when lead was to cold and didn´t make a safe connection - this issue is known by the term "cold solderingpoint" and the second possibility is due to the age - some leads start to disintegretion of the lead which is known by term as "leadsubversion" which means that the lead is corroding. In this case the resoldering is executed by heating op the lead till it just starts getting fluid again and adding very small amount of new solderinglead to the point.

Then execute all inspection points from fifth and sixth point when reinserting the chips in their sockets and inspect them again very carefully before attempting the power switch. If every point is O.K. then you might again start with powerup as described before without cards and then with cards proceeding to the tests with floppy bootup.

So up to this point i´m finished with this post and i guess that it will solve somehow the problem.

Otherwise send me a pm in the site and we can think about further procedures on chips explained throughout page 3 to 5 of the document.

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

you are a star! thank you very much!

Its a UK supplied PAL apple iie enhanced, i bought used when I lived in the UK a few years ago. Its got a 220v PSU. I brought it with me when I moved tocanada.

I'll get to grips with this in a few days, starting by swapping out the cable and the steps you descibe, in order. The monitors I have are a)sharp LC-19D LCD TV, this displays pal and ntsc (variuos flavours) and displays colour from my NTSC Vic-20 and PC-engine in NTSC 3.38 b) a commodore 1084s that has composite and RGB in. The only connection i see on the apple is the (phono)composite out, thats the only lead I have... i dont have a seperate colur or RGB board, thats just the composite out from the iie motherboard. maybe its something very very basic?.

Thanks again, I'll grab those docs and will start work in a few days, and will report back.

Smile

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

The chich output at the apple is realy the only output unless you have an RGB Card.... but the strange thing is that the outputsignal in those days where rather often not true FBAS signal but a kind of modulated and slightly shifted signal. So the commodore monitor should be fine if it has a chinch input besides the db-shell input for the true RGB-Signal.... that chinch input is then exactly what you need. At the DB-shell is the input for the separated RGB analog or digital signal ( that must be set by a switch on the backside of the monitor, and at the chich input you must select between RGB signal and FBAS and the the input must be set to one of both (preferably to RGB ) and the must be a third switch to select either input from DB-shell or from Chinchinput ( that must be set to chinch input ). In fact the difference is given by the stage where the input is processed in the monitor.... at the DB-shell the signsl of red, green and blue are allready splitted and therefor are processed behind the RGB decoding chip auch signal in its own amplifiertrack while the signal from the chinch jack is processed in the monitor befor the RGB-Decoder Chip that in the next stepp splits up the mainsignal to the single colorsignals by shifting them slightly befor the signals continue the same path like those from the DB-shell...
the other option is similar to those published in various websites that put the signal from the chinchoutput jack to a
chip where it is decoded and then sent to an SCART adapter to continue to the TV-set.
And the last option is the chinch output of the apple via chinch plug and 75 Ohm cable to an antennaplug an then into the tv set and the signal to be detected in the UHF-band of the tv set ( mostly somewhere between channel 36 and channel 40. Be aware to the fact that the computer might not allways hit the precise frequencies like they are detected by modern tv-sets and that you might need to adjust the frequency as i explained above ..... and don´t get mislead by the fact the the apple might be detected in other channels to. this results from the fact that the oscilator of the crystal generates so called "sidewaves" which cause something like a shadowpicture at the tv-set with intermittant intensity...
only if you are up to the correct frequency you will be able to adjust a clear page at the tv - the sidewave channels can´t be adjusted that fine to get sharp edges and allways remain a little bit "ghost-like". If you get with one of the other computers a sharp and clear colored picture then your on the right path and that might confirm the cable and the tv-settings to be O.K. with only the need to adjust the correct channel and the precise frequeny to the apple.

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

I don't know if it applies to your problem (likely not) but I had two Apple II+ units with no color. Both of them were crystals that had floated out of spec over time. I found replacements that worked, fortunately, but not all 14.31818MHz crystals work. It has to be exact.

I don't know if the same applies to the IIe, it likely has most of the video circuitry in custom chips instead of old TTL logic.

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

Hello rittwage,
your guess is not too bad... as I explained in the mail above I´ve mailed a document that shows the entire videosection of the IIe - which also shows up that section ( that in the pages 3 to 5 ). Due to the fact that in most cases the IOU-chip or the HAL-chip is the problem, this points were explained first and the next popular rate is the aging of the lead or a coldsolderingpoint. The crystal will be up in the list somewhere at position seven or eight... that is the reason that i closed the mail with the statement, that in case the explained points don´t work he shall be back and we would continue with that section prior of the IOU_chip and the HAL_chip. But just to put it to the point - the crystal might by aging turn to be with malfunction too... and of course should be one of the next steps too...

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

Hi

sorry - SO SORRY - for my lack of reply

i can't believe its been so long, but we are our way back to UK and I temporarily solved /avoided the issue by swapping in my ntsc motherboard and getting distracted by the cffa3000 and other things...

my apple is in a box and will be opened in about 6 weeks time !! I'll get take another look then.

thanks so much for the replies, sorry again for not replying and thanking you back then

Iain

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Re: Apple IIe enhanced -only outputs B&W

My PAL Apple IIe didn't display colors.

I solved the problem with the COLOUR/MONO switch located on the right side of the logic board.