Found, IIsi, SE SE/30 Daystar and Ethernet adapter

I'll go $25 USD (plus I pay postage) to Australia for all if you're wanting to sell these.

EDIT: or if you just want to sell the adapter board, I'll offer $10 USD

Hello, Your Daystar card is indeed a IIsi adapter card. The IIsi was designed to be a low cost Mac (shared VRAM, No FPU, ect...). So, being as it needed a riser card in order to install a PDS or Nubus (requires alternate riser card) card that has an interface, many companies figured they might as well put a FPU socket on the riser to help with the slow speed of the IIsi. Your card would electronically work in a SE/30, but since the SE/30 already has an 68882 on the logic board there really wouldn't be much of a purpose.

As far as the Ethernet card, I have seen this exect card many times over the years (I'm an authorized tech). It is after 5:00am where I am, and I havn't gone to sleep yet, so bear with me . If my memory serves I believe the card is made by Asante, although it MIGHT be a Farallon card. In either case, the card should not require any additional software over the standard Apple Ethernet extensions (unless you are running an alternate OS on an SE/30). If you are looking to sell this card, you could probably expect $30-$40 without too much trouble. As far as the Daystar card, I bet you could get just a little less then that for it on Ebay. I hope this info helps.

What I think you should do is find a nice SE/30 to put it in . They are great Macs, one of the all time best. I hope that I am not breaking any rules by saying this, since it would all be public domain, but if you were to ever acquire an old Mac and need a ton of great software (for free), feel free to e-mail me. I just like seeing old Mac be enjoyed by people and not desicrated in to acquariums.

Heh heh heh . . .

I've seen those adapters typically sell for well over $100 on eBay, at the high end I once saw a similar Daystar IIsi adapter with an '030 card go for ~US$300. Silly prices for sure, but they reflect the demand for the part and its scarcity. If it was a pukka SE/30 adapter (which it ain't) I reckon even now it'd easily fetch $300 or thereabouts. Still, it can be used in an SE/30 with a bit of adapting, so should still be worth more than a C-note.

Just my opinion folks, your experience and observations may vary . . .

All that said, I'd be remiss if I didn't toss out a firm offer to buy, reflecting how much I can afford to pay - US$75

dan k

wow - crazy money indeed. I picked up one of these for $20 not so long ago (se/30 nics go for $1 or so also if you keep an eye out). Guess that reflects the variability in prices.

Considering it's essentially useless without the right angle adapter (which I'm not sure where you'd get these days) or butchering a se/30 case, I'm not sure what is the big attraction to these.

For $300 you'd get the overpriced twinspark adapter board anyway.

I had one in my old IIsi, (don't remember what I did with it when I got the nubus kit for my IIsi). My IIsi is sitting in a closet at my parent's house wondering what ever happened to that group Four Non Blondes. It still has the nubus adapter in it. Crazy stuff. I actually miss that machine in a weird way.

I could have sworn the IIsi adapter was exactly identical to the SE/30 adapter!

What's the difference? Why is the IIsi adapter better?

(FYI last SE/30 adapter I saw, recently, sold for @$120 on eBay)

iisi adapter goes the wrong way.. you want the powercache to go vertically, not horizontally in the se/30.

iisi adapter gives a pds passthrough however, so you can have an extra card also (if you can find a right angle adapter).

Thanks for the awsome quick and responses.

And a hoot out to the offers for purchase, item is sold. =)

-Dk

How 'bout now?

---
/edit1/
I'm just realizing how this is all so confusing...
Here in the pic you see two nearly identical adapters... both with the pds pass through.
Even in the pic by the parent poster you see a completely different card... but also has what looks like a pass through.

The way I interpret what you've written is that only the IIsi adapters had pass through, and they didn't stand vertically, and this is obviously incorrent somewhere...

Also, you mention a right-angle adapter. I have to assume you are talking about a right-angle adapter for a IIsi, which I don't think is all that rare... certainly not as rare as the coveted right-angle adapter for a SE/30, which I'm pretty sure is a completely different thing.

/edit2/

ok.... you're not talking about the adapter here, are you...?
OK. Most fail to realize it is absolutely possible for the powercache to go horizontally in the SE/30, yet it involves altering the chassis in a minor way. Remove the HD bracket and floppy. Put a very small cut in the chassis to allow the adapter to fit. Put the HD on its side by the PSU. Many have a big problem with this... but if you plan to use it as a cute little server... you won't need a floppy... you need the processor boost and a NIC.

I'm sure I'm sure.. I have the daystar universal powercache manual and the se/30 adapter plugs in as to allow the powercache to go vertically. I'm not talking about the adapter going vertically, but how the powercache itself stands.

They have a picture. The adapter designed for the SE/30 has no pds passthrough.

Altering the chassis in even a minor way is butchering in my book. It's in the same basket as shoving a cube motherboard into it, or a lcd monitor or other such bastardry. I'm not sure any collector would regard a machine altered in such a way as worth having.

Please let me know where to obtain the right angle adapter (I'm not talking about the iisi one check here for details: http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/se30_pds_multiple.html ) - if you know - I've been sorely wanting one for some time.

You wouldn't like me at all then.

I love the SE/30. Just as it is... but...
I love the box so much, and although I appreciate what the mobo can do compared to the boxes of its day, and how it was superior for years to boxes that were made subsequently... I have to put other things in it... I must someday have an SE/Supercluster or SE/RAID or some such thing.

You and everyone else. Sorry... the only thing I can tell you is that I read somewhere once (with pics and instructions) where someone bought connectors that were half the size of the pds, cut them, glued them together... and made his own right-angle adapter. I'm sure that site is still out there... but I can't recall any search terms to find it.

I can understand doing such things to imperfect specimens, but to take a mint se/30 and to "mod" it in such ways is destroying history.

It's like taking a model-t ford and putting some modern engine in it for kicks.

I remember that too, been some years ago. A quick google search didn't reveal it. Probably missing just the right key words for the home-made part. If someone's finds the link, post it!

-Dk

Shamda knows all SE/30 info! The SE/30 minitower article is there along with the SE/30 Repair FAQ.

n/t

So, what exactly IS that DayStar card in the original post? Have we decided?

It's almost certainly not an adaptor to use a IIci Cache Slot accelerator, because both the PowerCache and Turbo040s had FPU built in--so why include an FPU on the adaptor?

My guess is that it's a board to allow using two PDS cards in a IIsi at the same time. That would explain the FPU, and I'll venture a guess that the logic near the middle is some cache for the 68030.

I've got the DayStar PowerCache IIsi adaptor in my SE/30, and it looks just like catmistake's top picture.

Also: Cat, what's the bottom adaptor in your picture? I'm talking about the one with TWO PGA chips on it.

I have all of the devices that one can plug into the 32-bit PDS slot found on the SE/30 and the IIsi. The two PDS slots are electrically identical.

They are physically identical to the cache slot found on the IIci and IIvx, but not electrically identical. Plugging in a card meant for the IIci/IIvx into the IIsi or Se/30 will destroy your motherboard (I have a burned IIsi motherboard to prove it).

Now for the cards:

Asante made an Ethernet card for the IIsi that has a pass through PDS port allowing horizontal placement of the card. It also has a socket for a Math coprocessor (68882). This is the best ethernet card for the IIsi since it allows you to still connect an SE/30 or IIsi accelerator.

Don't be tempted to plug in the IIci cache card or any card designed for the IIci PDS slot, you will burn the IIsi board.

Apple Made a IIsi Adapter board with a soldered on Math coprocessor rated at 20Mhz. I still have some of these in box, if anyone wants them at $20. However, I don't think highly of these: Their only purpose is to change the orientation of the PDS slot from vertical to horizontal, alllowing you to use longer SE/30 form factor cards.

If you are overclocking your IIsi, you can't use this adaptor: The Math coprocessor is rated at 20Mhz and nothing more, unlike the 68030 CPU, although rated at 20Mhz, will run to at least 25Mhz.

SuperMac made a DUAL PDS adaptor for the IIsi and sold it with the IIsi Video Spigot. It looks similar to the Daystar adaptor, but the slots are aligned and both are IIsi & SE/30 PDS slots.

The lower slot held the spigot and the upper slot held the digitizer board, but they can hold any SE/30 or IIsi PDS card (assuming it fits in the case). The upper slot has access to the rear panel port, while the lower card doesn't (unless you hack it). Supermac's Video Spigot had an RCA plug that bent upwards to exit alongside the video card's monitor socket.

The Daystar cards should have a notice along the lower slot that says "for Power Cache only."

The upper slot is a IIsi PDS slot for usual PDS slot devices, e.g. video card or Ethernet Card. The lower slot is actually a IIci/IIvx slot.

You can plug in any card designed for the IIci into this slot: Daystar's Universal PowerCache, Apple's Cache Card, and others. You cannot plug in any device designed for the IIsi or Se/30 into the lower slot marked "For PowerCache Only"

The reason there is a Math Coprocessor socket on the board is so you can have a math coprocessor when you use an 030 Cache card (from Apple or Daystar). The socket should be empty when using a powercache with a Math Coprocessor.

I hope I've cleared this up. In the meantime, I have lots of stuff for older Macs, so drop me a line if there is anything you need. I am in the Philippines, so bear in mind that there may be some customs and other issues.

You can mail me your older Mac stuff (especially cards, 30-pin RAM etc. but not whole machines) that you don't need, and I'll make sure it goes to good use in a charity or educational institution.

Does this slot open the door for using other IIci PDS cards/rockets in the SE/30 such as the Turbo 601? Would there be compatability issues?

The physical fit would be a major stumbling block in the SE/30. 040 upgrade cards can be really small, smaller than Apple's cache card. so it may fit if the floppy is relocated.

The best CPU upgrade for the SE/30, IMHO, is the Sonnet Allegro SE/30 (33Mhz 030, about as fast as the IIvx - 16Mhz bus+32Mhz processor) which was originally made by Daystar and sold by Sonnet until 2001. It plugs directly into the 030 processor socket.

If you can find this, you're golden.

Beyond this, you should consider doing a Color Classic + LC575 upgrade board project instead. You could upgrade the CPU to a full 040 and install Apple's PPC upgrade for entry level macs, which plugs into the 040 CPU socket and also has a socket for the 040, creating a dual 040/PPC boot color classic.

The PPC card is as BIG as upgrade cards go, and the SE/30, unlike the IIsi has dirty ROMs which the PPC card might have a problem with...not really sure about the ROM issue though, but I'm definitely sure about the physical fit issue.

AFAIK... SE/30 mobos with a removable processor are rare... In the 12 or so SE/30's I've laid hands on, I've never seen one (causing me to aquire more SE/30's than I really wanted seeking this version mobo). Also... I think any upgrade that uses the original processor slot is ideal... can't a 68040 plug in there, and the clock be "jumped" or replaced to have a much faster machine than the vx? (of course... A/UX can't be run on an SE/30 with a 68040... or can it?)

Why don't you just get some Chip-Quik and desolder the 68030 yourself? Solder in a 68030 socket and you're done. Easy.

Can't plug a 68040 into a 68030 socket, sorry. :-(

I'll have to try out A/UX on my SE/30 with Turbo040. I bet it'll work, but without the 128k cache.

It's the cache that really makes that thing fly. Without it, you've just got a fast chip waiting around for a slow bus all the time.

I really want some more speed for mine, though. I'm working on overclocking the SE/30 motherboard to get more memory bandwidth. I'm guessing I can probably get 33Mhz or maybe even more, but even 20Mhz would be a 25% improvement in bus speed.

I just need another SE/30 to do the work on.

That's what I thought, too.... but, not according to this statement I've seen in benchmark postings

like here (unless I am mistaking disk cache for proc cache... please let me know)

Outstanding! PLEASE keep us posted on your progress!!

I do have a socketed motherboard. Are these upgrades rare? I would like to stick with an SE/30...the color classic never really caught my attention.

This could be solved with a IIfx or IIsi ROM right? Would tbere be any other barriers besides the physical fit?

You are. The CPU cache on the Turbo040 boards is basically like a tank that sits in between the CPU and memory. As you read and write data to memory, the tank fills up. So, if you're doing a lot of operations to some small amount of data (that fits in the cache) it will be greatly accelerated due to not needing to go back and forth to the (slow) main memory.

If there's ever any progress, I'll let everybody know. ;-)

I'm not a believer in benchmarks, so I had never run any. When I was writing an article about the Turbo040, I decided that benchmark #s were better than no #s at all, so I ran MacBench on my SE/30.

I was astounded by what I should have already known: the CPU tests (which are small enough to fit in cache) were coming out very very fast: faster than the 840AV (which doesn't have L2 cache). The memory tests, though, were so laughable. It was painfully, painfully obvious that the 68040 is STARVING on the SE/30's memory bus. The cache helps tremendously, but if I could OC the bus to 33Mhz, that would help a lot more, methinks.

I've found the 68030-socket upgrades to be about as hard to find as the IIsi adaptor cards. Supposedly there's a 50Mhz one made by Micromac that's pretty good. I personally think it's a wash--whichever is easiest for you to find!

I've been wanting to get my hands on a PowerPro 601 to try out in my SE/30 for years now, but I haven't found one that was cheap enough to buy. (I use a Turbo040 and am NOT planning on going PowerPC, so it's just for the good of science)

I would suspect that it wouldn't be quite as easy as just throwing in a IIsi ROM SIMM, but I think that would be a good starting point. I would worry also about power consumption--adding an additional power lead from the hard disk supply might be a good idea.

Nobody's ever done it before, but several of us would like to try. :-)

When you bought a new PowerCache or Turbo040 from DayStar, you got whatever adaptor you needed for the Mac you were putting it into free of charge with the accelerator. I find it very difficult to believe that DayStar would make and sell a special board just so IIsi users could add the Apple (or DayStar) IIci cache card.

Also, Catmistake: What's the card with two PGA chips in your picture? Is it a DayStar IIsi adaptor? Mine only has one PGA chip, but is otherwise very similar looking.

I have no earthly idea. It's almost absurd that there is no single authority on what ALL of these cards/adapters/accellerators actually are... no site dedicated to the SE/30 that has documented every single one. There can't be that many...

Catmistake: Are the part numbers the same? Here's mine:

Whole board:
http://www.applefritter.com/node/10199

A central repository of all this information would be useful.

Also, if anyone has a spare 040 Turbo for a good home, please PM me. Thanks!

duh! Good idea... I'll take a look tonight when I get home.

That's exactly what my IIsi adaptor looks like. I'll check the P/N when I tear my SE/30 apart.

Diego: Can you post a more detailed picture of that adaptor? I think we'd all like to see more of it.

It looks like that Daystar card won't fit in an SE/30. the part of the board where the FPU solder pads site won't allow it to go through the frame hole which is just as wide as the PDS plug itself.

Also make a note of a sticker on the back. Mine indicates 88-PSAID-002. My guess is the PCB's will have the same P/N etched on the board, but the stickers will be different if they're still there. Although, I'm not sure what the point is unless we have a catalog to reference the P/N.

Yep. We usually cut a slit into the metal frame just wide enough to allow the card to pass through. I insulated mine with tape so it wouldn't short anything.

You're gonna have to ask dankephoto, he bought it off me. =)

Personally, I'd cut/deslder the socket. The socket is easier to put back on the card (though I dunno why one would put it back... No IIsi is gonna see that card again ) than to replace the cut frame.

[/quote]
They are physically identical to the cache slot found on the IIci and IIvx, but not electrically identical. Plugging in a card meant for the IIci/IIvx into the IIsi or Se/30 will destroy your motherboard (I have a burned IIsi motherboard to prove it).

Don't be tempted to plug in the IIci cache card or any card designed for the IIci PDS slot, you will burn the IIsi board.
Ivx slot.
[/quote]

Hi i've been lurking for a while now and have a question concerning a Daystar 040 fast cache accel. card for a IIci that I got off eBay some time ago.
I see that I can't plug this card directly into my SE/30 but if I were to make an adaptor for it could I change the pin connections so that it would work in the SE/30 ? I'm not intending to use any other cards in the machine at the moment so I'm only looking to make an adaptor that will allow the use of the IIci card.
I see this as only conecting the right pins together.
If this is possible does anyone know where I might look for the pin outs of both the IIci and the SE/30 boards?

Eddie

Unfortunately, it's not simply a matter of rearranging the pins. Some logic is necessary, which is why the DayStar IIsi adaptor board has the tiny square IC chip on it. Nobody has reverse engineered that chip yet, except for the Japanese fellow who owns artmix.com.

No way. First, and unfortunately, the IIsi adaptor boards are more rare and hard to find than SE/30s by quite a bit.

Secondly, such a "horribly butchered" SE/30 can be restored simply by swapping in the metal frame from a junked Mac SE.

Or, swap in the metal frame from a junked SE and PUT THE SLOT IN THAT. Now that's a hot idea! Swap back to the original if you ever want to get rid of the upgrade!

Good point on the SE frames! I hadn't thought of that path.

How about just making a female to male PDS adapter to raise the height of the adapter?

I read here that the fit wasn't that good is this correct?

Like they say on there, the fit can be a little better or worse depending upon exactly which SE you're talking about. No matter which SE frame you use, though, the cutting to fit the SE/30 power cable will be a lot less than the cutting to fit the IIsi adaptor board.

FWIW, the fit has been just fine with every SE I've tried, but they produced the SE for a LONG TIME. There's some considerable variation over those years.

ridiculous! I get jazzed up on something, then the next thing I know it gets out of hand!

Heh, yeah I'm the guy who bought the adapter from DK (the other DK), and I still don't know what exactly it is I bought. I'll put up a better image of it when I get around to it. In the meantime, I await the arrival of my 'new' SE/30, complete with pukka SE/30 Daystar adapter, PowerCache accell and Radius color card. Sigh! I just couldn't resist . . .

Well, at least I can now try to get a T601 going in an SE/30, since I've never before had the requisite adapter.

{dreamstate}
Mmmmmmmm, "OS9.1 on an SE/30" . . .
{/dreamstate}

dan k

That's a pretty sweet buy you got there. It's even got the Powered by DayStar sticker on the front of it. I wanted one of those stickers so bad and I couldn't find one anywhere--I had to reproduce them: http://www.fenestrated.net/~macman/PoweredByDaystar.pdf

What you've probably got in that auction is the DayStar SE/30 specific 50Mhz card that goes in the 68030 socket. But, you've got that adaptor that you bought from d_k, so maybe you can try the T601 in the SE/30 anyway. I'm willing to bet that if it works at all, it won't work without the IIfx/si ROM SIMM upgrade.

Can you post more detailed pictures of that adaptor that you bought?

I couldn't tell the relative size of the connectors from the original picture, but I'm willing to bet that with all that extra logic, it's the DayStar adaptor to put a Turbo040 and a NuBus card into a IIsi--that thing might be really fun in an SE/30, though you'd have to modify it extensively.

This thread is getting mighty confusing for me at this time of night. At the same time, I'd like to sort out the SE/30 acceleration options and make them clear to others. My main SE/30 has the daystar 68030/50 accelerator that plugs into the 68030 socket plus the IIsi ROM. And performance is great. I own various 68030 and 68040 accelerators for the IIci, Turbo 601 cards and a couple of IIsi PDS/IIci cache card adaptors, and I'm willing to experiment with my spare socketed SE/30 boards.

Here's the proposition:

1. Mail me directly with your experience of what does and does not work. Include experiences with alternative operating systems.

2. Let me know if you are able to send high res images of boards that might work in the SE/30. Don't post me unsolicited photos, just in case I have them already. And I don't want to flood my mail box.

3. I'll host at least one summary web page that will not be linked during the beta phase. The purpose is to give you all a chance to comment on other people's contributions. I suggest that we generate a separate thread here for corrections during the beta phase. Storage, bandwidth and connection speed will not be a problem.

4. I'll try to summarise existing SE/30 resources and provide links. Suggestions for links are welcome. Again, I'd like you all to comment on whether my summary is correct.

5. When we have something fairly concrete, I'll invite Tom to mirror the page(s) here.

6. Let me know how you wish to be recognised for your contribution (eg Applefritter handle, URL to personal pages etc). I won't post email addresses.

Provenance: My web site is currently at http://www.vintagemacworld.com/ and the earlier version is at http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/ The internet archive tracks me back to October 21 2000. I won't steal your contribution.

Phil

Arrrgh! You think? Damn, once again, the perils of buying stuff about which I know only a little.

B-b-b-b-but . . . it's got a color card too . . . how can that work if not with the adapter I was expecting?

Both connectors are PDS sized, not nubus sized, so it ain't that. I looked it over and there's no markings to distiguish between top and bottom slot (eg: "accell goes here".) Did Daystar make a dual-PDS adapter? None is listed on the modern legacy Daystar site, but I realize that means very little.

Once I get the 'new' SE/30 in hand I'll post pics of all I've got.

dan k

Because the 68030 socket is far enough from the PDS on the motherboard that the PDS is left completely free and open, like normal. Put the color card in as if there wasn't any accelerator to worry about at all.

Hmm. I have no idea what it is you bought, either. :-)

Awesome!

I think that's an awesome idea. I've actually been thinking about doing that myself for a while now. I'll email you some stuff later. For now, here's the part numbers for some DayStar PDS adaptors and stuff, copied from http://www.lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/upgrades/030.040/t040spec.html

Adapter PDS: Mac SE/30 and IIsi PDS cards
A31S2-000 (I'm pretty sure this is the extremely rare SE/30 adaptor)

Adapter IIsi: Mac IIsi (has extra PDS connector)
A31SP-000 (This is the card that all of us mere mortals have)

Adapter IIsi NuBus (has extra NuBus connector)
000063 (This is the one I'd like to try out, to see if I could get a SE-IV working in the SE/30)

This is obviously not the whole story, though, because the pic TT posted doesn't match any of those part #s.

I'll email you my part # sometime soon.

I've got some new heatsinks for the cache RAM on my Turbo040 and I'm going to try overclocking it to 48Mhz. It runs for a few minutes at that speed and then freezes--I think it's getting heatsoaked. VGA cooler to the rescue! I'll have to pull my IIsi adaptor out at that time.

I wonder if my 040 needs a fan at its stock 40MHz speed. It does get somewhat hot. And with the IIci adapter, the heatsink is pointed downward, which isn't too helpful for convection. Tyler, what ever happened to your project to overclock the motherboard?

I spotted on Ebay, someone that has contributed to this thread, just picked up an SE/30 with a 50MHz PowerCache. Nice work! I hope we'll get some interesting info about the adapter contained within sometime soon.

Well, I may be crying prematurely, but I bet that's what I'll get with my 'new' SE/x, an SE/30 PowerCache, not a Universal PowerCache w/adapter.

We'll see. I gotta take a break from eBay though - it's waaaay too easy to lob in those snipes . . .

dan k