iBook G3 and G4 logic board problems technical aspect

Quote from article:

"…you can often fix this yourself by removing the iBook's bottom housing, and placing a shim of any sort, about 1mm to 1.5mm thick, onto the raised square on the bottom shield. I use a Scotch mounting square--you can get them in hardware stores and many grocery stores. When you reinstall the bottom case, it will press against this shim, which will press against the graphics chip, and may allow the chip to come into better contact with the logic board.

John Sawyer
CJS Macintosh Repair
"

The online petition asking Apple to extend the iBook logic board repair program to the iBook G4s also says that the problem is the GPU failing.

Matt

Is the actual chip failing, or is it the soldering or is it the VRAM? I appreciate the feedback, but I really want to know more than the fact that its GPU-related.

Edit: I actually got a 800MHz G4 logic board firing here right now, just by applying pressure to the GPU, so the quote above can definately hold truth. The real question is how do you trust a component which depend on pressure to operate correctly? :-D

Is the GPU BGA or FPGA. If it is the latter try using a microscope or good magnifying glass and look at the contacts. See if you can find any that are lose. If there are bad joints you can use a variety of methods to reflow the join.

If it is BGA, that will be tough. The joins are under the chip its self. IIRC a X-Ray is used to check those.

The GPU and memory are both designed using Ball Grid Array, so the actual contacts are beneath the chip yes. This might explain why these parts are just traded when a fault is suspected, since obviously repairs are very hard.

Any thoughts on the "apply pressure" method? Im at the stage of wanting to taking out my propane burner and just give it a whirl underneath the GPU :-D

so that's why when i pushed down on my old iBook's palm rest, it made the video work again... Well, then that's the indication that it is the soldering joints are coming loose. I know that once I had the piece of plastic they put into my machine towards the end of the life of the machine, solved some of the problem.
I was lucky enough that apple sent me my 1.2GHz instead of the early G4's. anyway, if worst comes to worse, there might be a way to clamp the chip down to the underside of the board with something.

I managed to make a 500mhz iBook logic board work okish again after applying heat and pressure to the GPU, using a soldering iron and spoon. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have nerves of steel I have a 700mhz one I want to try it with some time.

John Sawyer -- you saved my life! My G3 ibook went crazy while I was working on a huge InDesign project on a deadline. I was hating to think that I had to run and buy a new laptop -- or pay for the part to replace my logic board (not to mention the time and complex effort to put it in!)

I just barely had to open the case past the battery compartment. I slipped in a little pack of about 8 taped together business cards, snapped the case back and voila! it worked just fine.

I just wanted you to know that you saved one person's life today!

My G3 800 Mhz iBook has the symptons of the logic board failure.
If it sits flat on the table and if I am very careful I can still work on it, for awhile.
unfortunately it is more than three year old, so it fall out of the extension program.
which does not seem correct since, even after 36 months, it is still faulty product. I paid more than € 2000 at the time I bought it, but I am not going to pay a huge sum again for a new logic board.

So I would like to try the "solution" of placing something in the case to press the part against the motherboard. But how do I do this and how do I know where to put the shim ?
If I open the case will this be obvious ?
Or can someone who tried this post a picture ?

Thanks

Macbook-fr.com have published an article about repairing a G3 iBook Dual USB video failure, with pictures .
The link is here => http://www.powerbook-fr.com/ibook/bricolage/repair_g3_video_en_article797.html

Good luck

pacis

It doesn't seem that the aluminum was added between the GPU and the metal sheild, so I'm wondering why it was even used. Just the four bumpers would have been plenty of pressure, I think.

Not too bad of an idea, though!

the iBook g3 gpu fix only works on those models. With the iBook G4, the gpu was moved to the topside of the logic board (as opposed to the bottom side on the g3's). The gpu is secured under the heatsink on these models (with spring tensioned nuts). Hopefully, someone will be able to put together another fix for these, but with my experimentation, I've yet to find one that works.

Yes, with ibook G4 it's exactly the same problem. When you press on the heatsink, ibook G4 is running. You must add between GPU and under heatsink, a little shim .
Like this picture =>

Yesterday my trusty 2002 iBook went weird. Today I found out I'd missed the boat on the logic repair deal - and just now I found this thread. 10 minutes and a small square cut from a CD later I'm back up and running. Amazing! Thank you all.

Use a c-clamp with two small blocks of wood to distribute the pressure. Locate just left of the touch pad. Email me if you want a picture. It works.

This problem also exists on the iBook G4 1GHz. It became such a problem for me that I just bit the bullet and put a 50/1000ths-inch billet aluminum shim between the transfer pad and the heat sink yesterday. So far, ZERO issues. I have a single nut and the RAM shield left over, though. The RAM shield prohibits the airport card from fitting and the keyboard's a bit of a tight fit now. Still, can't complain.

One question.... When you apply preassure, with the time the GPU will be "rewelded"?

your lucky I have tried "le Shim' a few times with progreesvely thicker aluminium..
0.2, 0.4, and finally 0.6mm which is less than 50/1000(=1.27mm) no joy for me...
I'm stuck with a G-clamp on the the outer case just where the video card is...

how long is you shim?
thanks

So far I must have the record with 6 - SIX - I repeat - 6 - SIX - repairs of the world famous "logic board" error.

Fist time was a couple of months after I bought the machine in August 2003 - when I came to the shop and asked if this was a known fault they answered "Noooo - we´ve never heard about this happening before".

After getting the machine back - 2 weeks - I checked and of course - Google was filled to the rim of references from people who have seen this happen.

Instinctively I knew that this is going to happen again - and it has - SIX times altogether, last being in July this year.

It is amazing that Apple can repair - that is putting in a new board - which they must know with very hight probability has the same fault as the one they removed. For sure thousands of boards have been made when this model was in sale and they all - at least many of them - has this particular error.

The really bad thing is that this product in most other aspects is very good, and when it comes to smooth running over time beats ordinary PCs by horse-lengths.

Anyway - I am thoughtful about buying a new Mac when there is no way to have this one repaired again without any costs.

I have a feeling that the apple is beginning to rot.

As a service technician who oversees a 2000 unit deployment of 1ghz 12" iBook G4's, the video chipset failing is an unusual failure path (1 every two months). Another factor in logic board failure that I've come across has been heavy use. Units that see a lot of heavy use in settings other than on a desk have a higher failure path than units who only see desk use (while still being transported from place to place.

The primary point of failure I've observed with the iBook G4 logic boards has been where the unit fails POST, won't chime, spins the fan at full speed, and provides no backlight or video. Once at this point, nothing resolves the issue. Resetting the PMU doesn't resolve the matter, the suggestions with the video chip also don't help, which leads me to believe that the point of failure is somewhere else.

The problem with my g4 ibook is just plain weird. It gives me the blue screen of death. From a cold start, it will work up to five minutes, but then freezes and returns to the blue screen of death. After trying every conceivable software fix, I became desperate and tried the ibook g3 solution, meaning a clamp to the left of the trackpad. I realize a clamp (on the left of the trackpad!) shouldn't have worked, but for some reason it did.

I can use the keyboard normally (none of the reported "trackpad is useless" problems) but after typing for some time the vibration seems to affect something and the system will freeze, resulting in the aforementioned "blue screen of death" problem. Once in the blue screen of death mode, I am forced to power off and wait at least five minutes before restarting, or otherwise the blue screen of death will return.

I can use a USB keyboard/mouse and the g4 ibook remains crash free indefinitely -- no problems. However, if I remove the clamp, the system invariably freezes -- usually immediately, but sometimes it takes five minutes.

Needless to say, I'm not happy with the clamp/usb keyboard solution, and am curious if I can shim the g4 -- but I've yet to find an accurate guide to do so, and am worried that I'll only create more problems.

Try to get a set of the Apple thermal pads for the iBook G4. I've tried this approach on some of the units that do have this issue and it seems to help. Double up the thermal pad, and tighten the hard drive screws the best you can, also make sure you have the little nut that's towards the bottom of the heatsink nice and tight.

That's good advice. I'll give it a shot. There's a better than even chance something has worked itself loose, as my g4 ibook has seen some rugged use (I travel often for my occupation).

I can't stress the importance of checking your logic board screws on the bottom side. I'm willing to bet that 1, maybe even 2 or 3 have worked themselves loose and are rattling about. Get some loctite and use it on the screws (one of the weaker loctites). We've been working on this as a fix for screws coming loose and it seems to do a world of good.

Nice advice iantm.
contemplating opening my Ibook g4 again...

But where to get those pesky thermal pads..?..

The G-clamp tighened nice and hard just below the alt key turns my ibook G4 (with dodgey video card) into and ugly, but mobile, working desktop.

I'd have to agree probably comes out more for users that use their ibooks more ruggedly. It's all from flexing that logic board .. Hopefully nevers happens in Macbooks!

I took it apart this afternoon, and there were a few loose screws about. I tightened everything, hoping I would get lucky, but when I put it back together, same issues.

Thermal pad would be the next logical step -- can I just substitute silver, or are thermal pads necessary?

and isn't the same if you fix a washer between the screw and the heatsink, by this way you will exercise more preassure in the GPU chipset, Dont you think so? Besides You will get more disipation in the chipset due to the minor resistance in the middle layers.

Wait a sec... are you suggesting that I put a washer on one of the heatsink screws? Is that a good idea? Has anyone tried it?

hi all,
i tried shimming my g4 several times with no success. i eventually got the machine working again by shimming a chip on the underside of the board. no idea what the chip does, but it seems to work. i put details and pictures on my website:

www.coreyarnold.orb/ibook

I think you mean http://www.coreyarnold.org/ibook/

Yes, sorry. http://www.coreyarnold.org/ibook

Thanks for catching that.

My G3 iBook went a bit mental a few days ago - Lines going across the screen, followed by a total freeze...

There then followed a series of blank screens with fan noises & not much else happening. Then, whilst listening for fan noise (holding the iBook at 45 degrees) it randomly started up, allowing me to frantically back up all my data.

But thanks to your handy tips regarding shims, I've got the bugger working! At a cost of 2 English pence - that's what I used to pressure the logic board thingy. 2p!!

Very disappointing though, as I only had the iBook for 2 & a half years. The "Genius" at my local Applestore gave me the "Genius" advice that it was dead, and that I might consider buying a new MacBook. Thinking about a Macbook, but how do I know it won't just go wrong too?!

Thanks to this list I found http://www.coreyarnold.org/ibook/
I found that when I applyed presure to this ic when I powered it up, it would boot.
(It did nothing before except turn on the fan to full speed)
I would take my hand away, and a few mins later the screen started displaying full screens of colors, just like it did when this all started.
I disconected the battery, and did it again, this time holding it longer, it stayed working like it should.
I shut it down and took out the battery and very carefully touched each pin with my soldering iron, with a sharp tip.(Only do this if you have experance with small electronics, this IC is quite small) All while applying pressure to the IC. Iv'e had it running for an hour or so and no problems yet.

Good luck to others with the same problems.

also check out http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/iBook-G4-14-Inch/

They also sell lots of ibook parts, I need a fan for ours.

Kent Kenison

Update:
Dead again, logic board is completely fried, the chip that is the issue is the 'ISL6225' http://www.intersilsemi.com/cda/deviceinfo/0%2C1477%2CISL6225%2C0.html

From what I can tell this is the power supply for the graphic card.

Resoldering this chip will probbly fix it, but it is very very small 28 pin ic, you would need a iron with a tip the size of a 24 awg wire.

I aslo found that one of the heatsink mounting pins that go through the board came unsoldered.

I am very unhappy that this computer only lasted two years(few months after apple care ran out).
That is why we bought a Mac, so we could have it for the next ten years.

Good luck to others
Kent

my G3 iBook--my first Apple product (after being a loyal Windows PC user for some 15 years!!) and a gift from a close frd about 2 yrs ago (thus not even a hope of getting coverage under apple's replacement program)--began to show the classic signs of logic board failure. (an aside, but y the 'logic' vs 'mother' board apple/pc dictomy?) needless to say i was near my wits end and seriously thinking about slitting my belly open and honorably casting off this veil of tears that had become my life...well not really but i was upset. i didnt realize just how attached i had become to my little white on white mac. as Joni Mitchell sang, ''Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone...'' i had accepted the fact that i wud have to have it replaced (or worse purchase a new laptop), found a used one for 300 bucks (hoping that it too wudnt suffer the same problem) and a selfinstall tutorial (which im sure wud have been several hours of pure joy)...then i ran accross the Scotch mounting square trick here...well...as f**king crazy as it sounded to me at first i thought i'd give it a run through (didnt have much to lose)...and IT DOES WORK ...my computer has worked perfectly ever since about a month ago under normal operating conditions [even with the upgrade to 10.4.6 from 10.2.8] and the repair cost me a grand total of $1.58!!...i felt so satisfied i just had to share the love!! THANKS!!!, peace out!

just out of curiosity, and please correct me if im wrong, but why not just reflow it with a heat gun?

Trying to reflow with a heat gun would be trying to do the job of a $20000 hotair rework station for $15. It might work, but the ability to control what happens and to know if things actually went as planned are dramatically reduced. With careful planning and use, a heat gun has a chance of working. Without, or a hasty job, and the logic board gets scorched and won't work at all. By the time you realize something is going wrong with the heatgun, your board is already toast. I'd only try a heatgun fix if the board is otherwise useless, and you already have a replacement available. Major tips: Heat slowly and evenly, create air dams and blocks to prevent heating parts of the board that don't need it. Trying to just stick the heatgun near the chip and blasting away is just asking to scorch the solder mask and melt traces.

Wow. Despite being skeptical about the clamp fix because the tech above described my problems exactly (booting but only the fan spinning up and no booting sound) I tried it and it works. Boots up perfectly. Thanks!

I have the $20,000 reflow equipment. Even with this, it is a very difficult process.
Whatever you do, DO NOT use a heatgun to try to fix these problems unless you are a pro.
In the post a few above this one, Jon gives the best advice on the heatgun theory.
There is a about a 3 second window that you have while trying to maintain a certain temperature to allow this to reflow the solder properly. If you blow it, the solder will "pool" up and you can kiss any chance of it ever working again at all goodbye.
From all the ibooks I have been in contact with and all the research and experimentation, it is my opinion that these video chips were not mounted properly to begin with. Add some serious heat that is generated from within, and you have a very frustrating video problem.
From what I have seen, these video chips were un-evenly soldered. You can actually see one corner higher off the board than the others. It is my opinion that this high corner is the first to lift slightly off the board. Thus, allowing you to squeeze or shim to make it work again. Pretty simple but a pain in the rump. I have seen the same problems with the g3 and g4 ibooks. Being that the macbook pro is out now, and in a smaller case, my guess it's only a matter of time. The temperature at which most solder will melt is around 170 degrees celsius. At 200, components will slide right off any circuit board. If these chips are coming un soldered from heat within, its safe to say that its a bit warm in there.

The Apple OSX operating system is one hell of an animal. I couldn't imagine using Windows again. The trouble free operation (other than what we have discussed) as far as the operating system is gold to me. The rate at which apple introduces new products you can almost expect some types of problems. My opinion is that they need to spend a whole bunch more time on testing before launching these products. But when you have only 4% of the market share worldwide, you do need to pump out new products to stay competetive. Unfortunately this tactic makes people like us suffer with endless hardware issues.

Don't be surprised if one day soon you can buy OSX and install it on any PC.
Power PC, Intel Mac, i'm sure you can all come to your own conclusions.

Well, hopefully this answered some questions that many of you had, or at least enlightened some of you. This whole post is based on my opinions that I have gathered by working on well over 5 thousand of these laptops.

If anyone has any questions, feel free. I will reply when I have the time.

Good luck to all of you in your battles.

Thanks to everyone here, my sister and I fixed (we hope) her G3 600mhz ibook. We first tried shimming between the plastic bottom case and the metal shield, closed up the book, booted and failed after 5 minutes, as had been the case before our repair. The next day, we reopened the case and did a repair similar to the powerbook-fr repair (http://www.powerbook-fr.com/ibook/bricolage/repair_g3_video_en_article797.html) mentioned in this forum, using two pieces of aluminum flashing sandwiched around some double-sided tape, then taped this sandwich to the the metal shield in the square cavity below the GPU. Then with the shield in place, we used 5 of the small rubber "bumpers" to apply pressure to the GPU. Once the case was closed, we booted up and the computer has now worked for 4 days.

Are there any reports about how long these shim fixes have worked? Thanks, and thank to everyone for this great forum.

My friend's G4 Powerbook 1.25GHz has lines on the screen. Is this an early sign of GPU solder point failure?

Hello:

While I have never owned or been around an IBook to speak of, after reading this thread I have the following notion to test ... but of course no way to test it.

That said, if picking up the case a certain way and other comments regarding the cases are correct ... can the case itself be modified to address some of the issue.
For instance: "decorative" framing on the underside with new feet that is in fact a case re-inforcement structure.
Or perhaps: a thin layer of sturdy plastic or metal with any holes drilled as needed to be able to disassemble the computer again later.
Or perhaps there is space inside the case for some sort of re-inforcements to the actual casing.

As many people as have posted and worked on the IBooks, I do not recall seeing posts related to a potential immunization in the form of a re-inforced case ... Yet.

However people that actually have the IBooks will have to be bold, creative ... etc to go to where apparently no tech has gone before to see if the notion is even applicable or not.

I have no way of knowing, but would be intereseted to enlist others to try various schemes to re-inforce the cases, and report back the results. Could be interesting!

Quietly lurking and looking ... until .... NOW! (:-)

David

Ack. My wife informed my of a similar thing happening to our G3 iBook the other day. It was plugged into the same outlet as a water cooler/heater unit and the lines appeared when it kicked on. She said she rebooted it and everything was fine. I've been dreading any escalation of problems, hoping that it just might have been a simple interference issue...

Roland Sh-101 synths had a similar problem. The cheap plastic case wasn't stiff enough to prevent the PCB from flexing, and over time, something or other would crack or pop loose or a track would lift or whatever. It's a common fix to place a piece of sheet metal under the PCB, screwed down to the existing case.

The easiest way is to remove the motherboard and send it to a prop shop for rework. I sent a board to First Phase Tech and they fixed it by blowing some flux under the chip and locally reheating. It cost me $50 and they have done repairs like this before. I got the xrays of before and after and it looks good. I have a second repaired board coming to me soon.

I thought about getting a simple BGA rework station to do it myself, but for $50, I might as well send it in.

Tom (Mad Dog in other forums)

These guys?
http://www.firstphasetech.com/f-dash.asp?Page=147707.html
http://stores.ebay.com/First-Phase-Technologies_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQfsubZQ2d999QQftidZ2QQtZkm

It's good to read a review of them. $50 for the repair sounds much better than gambling on an eBay replacement. Of course, I'd source a cheap eBay replacement and have that one fixed, and if it works then swap it in. And maybe end up with a faster mobo as a plus.

Yep, thats them. If I had more time I would get my own BGA equipment so I could do it myself, but $50 is a good price point for me.

Tom (Mad Dog on other forums)

I posted last week about a successful shim fix of a G3 600 ibook logic board. It is still working but I'd like to get an idea of how long these fixes have lasted. Or if any have failed? Thanks to anyone who has some experience with this.

Kathy

I vaguely recall someone claiming the shim failed over time. I suppose you could shim until it flakes out then send the board in.

I just found out some more info from First Phase: The reflow fixes the same type of problem on the G4 ibook, which I assumed, but never knew for sure.

Tom

That might have been me on this forum. Before Apple replaced my Laptop, my G3 900 had the shim fix fail on me 4x. The fix is absolutely useless unless it sits on a table 100% of the time for the rest of it's life and not moved every again. With time, the shim will come loose and will start the horrible process all over again with the GPU Coming loose