Classic II problems

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Hello. A while ago I brought a Classic II on ebay. It worked fine until a few days ago. Now every time I boot it up it will display some pattern of black lines. Then it will display a pixel checkerboard then the "chimes of death" (no Sad Mac).

So can you please help me?

PS: NO, I am NOT going to take apart a mac, okay?!?!

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Re: Classic II problems

shyguy345 wrote:

PS: NO, I am NOT going to take apart a mac, okay?!?!

Why not? IIRC the Classic II uses SIMMs for the memory. Sounds like a problem with the memory. Either it is failing or has a bad connection. Pretty much not way to fix it with out opening it.

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usually the only way to fix t

usually the only way to fix these issues i to open the case, if you don't you will not even begin trying to get it working again. like hat was said above sounds like a memory issue. try removing them and reinstalling them again cause they could have developed a bad connection.

or you can buy another one.

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grrrrrr......

I can't afford another mac.

why open the case???? you would useally break the mac.
scared cuz i can't afford a torx screwdriver and I am a mac n00b.

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Re: usually the only way to fix t

madmax_2069 wrote:

or you can buy another one.

Nope.

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if you don't want to open it

if you don't want to open it your out of luck on trying to fix it.

the reason is the parts that need messed with are inside of the case. there is no other way.

get over your fear of working inside of it and take it easy and use common since, cause its real easy to do

or that buy another one and sell that to someone that will work on it.

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that is a problem

I understand about both your concerns, but these guys are right.

I've got machines that I am always concerned about opening (because of the complexity and the cost of parts- a couple of my Silicon Graphics machines are pretty nuts on the inside), but I have found that a few questions to people that know what they are doing will help out every time. That's why this forum is here. There are people here that work on Macs as part of their daily jobs, and there are people here who work on Macs daily for fun. There are also good take apart guides to be had just by asking.

Additionally, I know a little something about being broke, but a torx screwdriver is like $7 at Sears. You could also scrounge up one at a pawn shop for almost nothing. Several of the pawn shops in my area have bins of loose tools that are sold for $0.25 each. Heck, if you ask nicely, someone might be coerced into sending you one.

In short, you ain't gonna fix it unless you (or someone else) open up the case and check it out. Ask in advance in this forum about the "gotchas" that are involved, where to get a take apart guide, and you will be fine. Really. I swear.

mike

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I'm not sure enthusiastically

I'm not sure enthusiastically advising someone to go work around the exposed innards of a CRT--someone who already expresses great trepidations--is exactly the wisest advice here.

Also, the problem may not be the memory, or may be multiple problems. Those black lines on the screen can be an indicator of leaking caps and the motherboard may need a good washing.

The best advice might be to simply get another Mac. What do you rely on a Classic II for other than word processing, anyway? Getting a cheap G3 would be a leap into the stratosphere in comparison. Save up.

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Re: grrrrrr......

shyguy345 wrote:

... i can't afford a torx screwdriver ...

They've got the one you need at Sears for $6.95. It's a T15 with a 6" shank.

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heck i knew nothing about my

heck i knew nothing about my SE/30 when i got mine. it would just give me the flashing folder. i took the case off and seen the CRT was real close to the mobo ( so i used some common since and got some rubber gloves that went to my elbow) i know that a CRT can kill you and i think the OP does as well since he was afraid to open it. or he can take it to a tv repair shop and have them discharge the CRT.

but i removed the cables from the drives and reseat them and it worked after that. his issue is a bit more involving. if he takes precautions and takes it easy he should have no issues working on it.

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oh well...

ok

truth is, your ideas are great, but my dad wont let me:

-buy torx screwdriver
-buy another mac
-or even fix our mac!

How mean!!!!!!
>:-(

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then i guess your at a loss,

then i guess your at a loss, sorry to be the barer of bad news. might as well sell it to someone that will fix it (if its possible)

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Re: oh well...

shyguy345 wrote:

truth is, your ideas are great, but my dad wont let me:

-buy torx screwdriver

I can't help you with your other problems, but I've been known to grind down a flathead so it fits the torx screw.

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Re: heck i knew nothing about my

madmax_2069 wrote:

i took the case off and seen the CRT was real close to the mobo ( so i used some common since and got some rubber gloves that went to my elbow) i know that a CRT can kill you and i think the OP does as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

"beliefs or propositions that in their opinion they consider would in most people's experience be prudent and of sound judgment, without dependence upon esoteric knowledge or study or research"

If you walk down the street and ask everyone you pass about the dangers of opening up the case of a CRT monitor, I doubt 51% will know of them, and probably most not at all. I doubt 10% will know. Probably not even 5%. 75% probably don't even know what a CRT is. Unfortunately, but obviously, this is not common sense at all, it's educated knowledge. You can't assume anything about an OP if he or she's unknown to you. The OP could be eight years old. My only point is, if you make advice like this in an open forum, you must include the appropriate warnings.

Actually, my suggestion would be that the moderators have a little collection of warnings that they can paste into threads where appropriate, just to avoid the possibility of liability. I would think that if a child were harmed because of advice here, any half-decent lawyer could win a verdict of partial liability against Tom Owad, but I've actually no knowledge of the legalities here.

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common sense?

Hey,

"I would think that if a child were harmed because of advice here, any half-decent lawyer could win a verdict of partial liability against Tom Owad, but I've actually no knowledge of the legalities here."

So you're doing what you warned against?

William
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I wasn't the one giving the a

I wasn't the one giving the advice. I advised an alternative instead here. I have made a point of adding the warnings in other threads about portable macs. I think I got the point across here as well. Of course, there's a judgment call, and my judgment reading this thread makes me think the OP may no nothing at all about the dangers.

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Death From CRT

Hey,

The "death from CRT discharge" thread rears its ugly head every so often on lists and forums dealing with vintage Macs and I've been inside scores if not hundreds of the little toasters and never had a problem. Nor have I ever heard a first-person version of anyone else ever having a problem. I'm not saying that people who aren't comfortable doing those kind of repairs or who are afraid should crack open their vintage Macs and dive inside. All I'm asking is whether anyone using these forums have ever been shocked as the result of an un-discharged CRT. Not your neighbor's first cousin or your sister's friend's lawyer or someone who posted about a guy in Slobbovia who killed himself and several elk.

Anybody here ever been shocked as a result of what's described above?

William
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What's your point? Because no

What's your point? Because no one here has experienced it, then the danger doesn't exist? Do you know who shyguy345 is and what his expertise and abilities are? Obviously, a dead person's not going to chime in here. The dangers need not be fatal. There are many dangers from high voltage electrocution.

And another thing, for every one of us participating here, there may be ten or twenty others of varying knowledge simply reading the proceedings, and another fifty or a hundred in the future who read this thread. There may be even some of the regular participants who are unaware of the dangers. My suggestion is simple. A moderator pumps in the warning when appropriate, those who are unaware learn something, and things just move on as they are. I get no pleasure from being a nanny. This is not something I actually want to do. I have two people I'm concerned about, the tinkerer and Tom, as well as the fate of Applefritter. One lawsuit and that could be the end of Applefritter.

Here's another Wikipedia page for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence

"...criminal negligence is a 'misfeasance or 'nonfeasance,' where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest."

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Here's my point . . .

Hey,

Read what you wrote out loud. It contains nothing but fear. Fear of bodily harm, fear of lawsuits. You want a disclaimer instead of education. Whatever shock one may get from a CRT it is highly unlikely to be fatal, yet -- and yes you are being a nanny -- you spread the fear of lethal death rays emanating from old Macs. It's silly. Precautions? Of course. The death of fear is empowering those who wish to go into their machines with a sensible plan, rational guidance, and a list of tools. But why do something that educates people when you can scare them senseless and then toss in a lawsuit closing down the internet and paving over Cupertino? And if you're not a lawyer, stop playing one in these forums. Criminal negligence? That's manifestly frivolous as they say in court.

William
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Here's a scenario for you. Sh

Here's a scenario for you. Shyguy345 goes ahead against his first inclinations and opens up the case of his Classic II, not having been warned about the dangers of an undischarged CRT. He has to leave the room for some reason and leaves the Classic II exposed on the floor where he had dismantled it, completely unaware that it has any dangers. While he's away, along comes his three year old brother into the room who is delighted to find a new toy on the floor...

Might not kill an adult.

Lawsuit or no, is this an outcome you'd wash your hands of?

Lethal death rays emanating from old Macs? Huh?

What's this button I'm pushing on you, William?

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Huh?

Hey,

Are you serious? That "scenario" makes sense to you? How about the child pokes itself in the eye with the torx tool? Or, the blind uncle trips over the Classic II and breaks his skull in a million pieces on the coffee table and the mother rushes in and slips on the brains spread all over the floor and slides through the picture window? So does Tom Owad get sued for this? Puh-leeze, can we get real? You're really off the wall with that example.

William
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Yes, nonsensical

My God. You would wash your hands.

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Please allow me to introduce myself . . .

Hey,

You got it. I'm the devil. Satan incarnate. The evil educator who wants to eradicate fear with knowledge. Why fear spirits and rumors when you can learn and advance your knowledge and fix your gear? False nannies and nay sayers will appear in the fog and smoke of ignorance to ply their trade with stories of death and burning babies and they shall hold sway for a millennium. The clouds of doubt and fear can be dispelled.

Just bite my Apple.

William
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William, I've not called you

William, I've not called you any of those things, nor do I think them. You're an intelligent guy. I like your website. You have surprised me, though. Do you really think that scenario is not possible and that anyone who had advised the operation and not added the warning would not be in any way responsible? Have you had, or been around any toddlers? Unlikely? I'd say it's a very possible scenario. Spreading fear? Do you think all warnings and disclaimers are ridiculous? Go over to XLR8yourmac and check out the disclaimers and warnings. Will you write to them that they are absurd and fearmongering? It's a simple suggestion. When talking about opening a CRT there should be a warning about the dangers. What really is your problem with that?

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Don't make me pull this thread over ...

The way I see it, there are three people (maybe more) being unreasonable here:

• Shyguy's dad for not letting him buy a $7 screwdriver
• william ahearn for being dead set against warnings of any kind
• Hawaii Cruiser for his paralysis over letting shyguy learn about his Mac

Yes, CRTs are dangerous. I work on eMacs and iMac G3s on a pretty regular basis, and an undischarged CRT can pack a serious punch. Stunned me pretty damn good and I learned pretty quickly to be more careful.

So in fairness, shyguy also needs a CRT discharge tool, which he can make himself from a slotted screwdriver, 18" of 12-gauge stranded copper wire, and an alligator clip. Five minutes of soldering and another two minutes of instruction on how to use his new tool, and he can add another merit badge to his Geek Scout vest.

I, too, get mildly annoyed by mandatory seat belt laws, by the kill switch on my lawn mower, or by printed warnings that objects in my mirror are closer than they appear, or that the contents of my coffee cup are extremely hot. But I do know they're there for a good underlying cause: to protect me and those who actually don't know better.

I like all of you guys, but you need to lighten up and play nice.

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Re: oh well...

shyguy345 wrote:

ok

truth is, your ideas are great, but my dad wont let me:

-buy torx screwdriver
-buy another mac
-or even fix our mac!

How mean!!!!!!
>:-(

Well. That is a different story all together. You're pretty much out of luck, unless you can convince the Dad otherwise. If you aren't a good debater, I'm thinking Craigslisting the Classic II is gonna be the plan for you. Wink

Now that last part- I'm not sure I'd necessarily say mean... maybe well meaningly over-cautious. My Dad was very much the same way, and I went behind his back and took stuff apart anyway - AND - I got shocked pretty decently messing around with an old tube-type black and white TV. I learned pretty quickly what not to do (and have not ever had a problem since then opening up CRT's, believe me) Reading the instructions would have been good. Using my head would have as well.

As I mentioned to start with, there's lots of good guides on opening up compact macs. They all address precautions working around the picture tube, because it can be a real problem. You can get shocked if you are careless. It probably wouldn't kill you, but it might. In my case, I just got a jolt and a scare - and learned some valuable lessons.

I suppose you are seeing the back and forth here because folks on this forum are excited about people getting their hands dirty and keeping Macs running. Something like "NO, I won't open the case" is taken as a challenge of education. However, I'm not going to sit here and tell you or your Dad, or anyone else, NOT to be apprehensive about working around an exposed CRT circuit. It does need respect.

So if your Dad's put his foot down, Craig's it for now. Read up. Get your own place when you've gotten a little older. Then you can buy compact macs to your heart's content, and fix 'em every which way but Sunday.

Maybe right now you need something like a IIfx or some sorta Quadra? No CRT to worry about...

mike

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Ok

"his paralysis over letting shyguy learn about his Mac"
I think that's unfair, but I'll let it slide. The first thing for him to learn about his Mac in this situation is that it could shock you to death, seemed to me.

One of the reasons I bring up the lawsuit thing is because I've always been curious just how vulnerable to a lawsuit these kinds of forums can be because of input from participants. Was hoping someone would illuminate.

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My problem . . .

Hey,

Thanks for the kind words about my website. My problem with the toddler example is that it really has nothing to do with discharging CRTs. It has more to do with responsibility. Let's face it: Toddlers get hurt every day because someone isn't paying attention. I think finding a toddler hurt by an undischarged CRT is going to be a difficult task. My problem with a disclaimer is that it accomplishes little and solves nothing. Avoiding CRT shock is actually easier than discharging a CRT. But no one ever seems to take the time to explain that. They jump up and down and spread fear and as a result fewer people are willing to try and fix their aging Macs. I've been inside scores of compact Macs and the only time I ever tried to discharge a CRT was on a dead Color Classic. None of the others. Ever. And I never had a twizzle or a shock. Maybe I'm lucky but I don't think that's the right answer. It's not that dangerous to take apart a compact Mac if you have clear instructions and some confidence in what you're doing. All I'm trying to do is dampen the fear factor that always arises when this procedure is even mentioned. And that fear is based on theoretical problems rather than fact-based evidence of real incidents. It's almost an urban myth. Or a dividing line between those brave enough and those not in the Mac world. And that's silly. So, in addition to warnings and disclaimers, there should be encouragement and instructions so people who want to help these ancient critters can try and fix them, rather then tossing them in a heap because of fear of death, dismemberment and lord knows what else. And the lawsuit probability is slim even in the current atmosphere. When it comes to reducing the digital divide -- and understanding even old technology is part of that -- I don't see fear as a constructive motivator. It rarely is a constructive motivator. What I've learned on mail groups and forums like this one is how to approach technical problems by people who have already done them or know a link or a book or a possible solution. That's priceless. I just want to see that spirit continued. Yes, I once blew up a PowerComputing machine because I made a stupid mistake. You can wreck some cool stuff taking chances. But there has to be a balance between real downsides and imagined fears. And I find the CRT scare to be more imagined than real. That's not to say an unattended wet toddler can't be fried. But unattended is the operative word and not CRT. The same example could be used for toasters, cars, vacuum cleaners, power tools or toys from China. It's a non-started as far as discharging CRTs go in the larger scheme of things. All I'm suggesting is that people who want to add RAM, upgrade hard drives, install vid cards, or NICs in vintage Macs not be given the fear of imminent death if they attempt such an endeavor. It can be encouraged without scaring the pants off newbies.

William
www.williamahearn.com

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above the law

Yes, and since we're on the subject, this might be a good time for someone to detail exactly what NOT to do with an exposed portable Mac, or link to the reputable webpage.

On the subject of lawsuits, something occurs to me. Sorry, guess I am just a fearmongerer. I did take a business law class at UH once, had to excrutiatingly read through that massive West's Business Law book, so have had a little exposure to the practice. What occurs to me is that, if lawsuits are possible, the persons who probably have more to fear, even moreso than Tom, is anyone giving advice here who is a certified technician. I would think you would be, without a doubt, legally accountable for unstated warnings and instructions if someone wanted to file charges in regard to advice coming out of a thread that said technician participated in. Of course, they'd have a grand time trying to track you down, even if you were in their jurisdiction, or even proving it was actually you who was using the forum account--which would throw it back at Tom again? Sound like something never to happen? Imagine the parents of that shocked toddler seeking restitution for the astronomical hospital and therapy bills, for pain and suffering, if not just retribution. Desperate people will go to desperate measures. Enraged people will do even more. I don't suppose there's any lawyers amongst us?

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i personally watched my grand

i personally watched my grandpa get floored by a old TV's CRT he was messing around with and wasn't paying attention to what he was doing ( he didn't get killed by it tho, which he got lucky he was around 56). i might not have been bit by a CRT ( yet) but i know what 110 feels like, thanks to a faulty wire (from a mouse).

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Shocked toddler . . .

Hey,

You said:

"Imagine the parents of that shocked toddler seeking restitution for the astronomical hospital and therapy bills, for pain and suffering, if not just retribution."

There is no case here. The child's shock resulted from the negligence of the person mis-performing the repair. As I said before, if an unattended child pokes itself in the eye with the torx tool, does that open Sears to a negligence claim? The person's negligence in leaving an electrical device on the floor where unattended children can access it far outweighs any culpability on the part of a website or technician giving credible advice. How is the tech or website liable for that? There's no claim here because there was no action on the part of the website that would lead to the child's injury. The child was injured due to stupidity on the part of the person attempting the repair.

William
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That's what I'm asking. If th

That's what I'm asking. If there is any culpability for giving advice on the internet at all. The pivotal fact for making a successful charge may be that both victims are children. It's like being on the internet and telling the teenage boy to remove a gun from a shelf, load it with bullets, and turn the safety off.

For my hypothetical, let's say shyguy345 is thirteen. No one here knows his actual age, right? It wouldn't be important for my hypothetical anymore, anyway. Let's say he's thirteen. For more effect, we could say he's nine or ten.

On whether the adviser is guilt free or not, you and I, William, agree to differ. I say he'd be guilty of criminal negligence. You say he can wash his hands of responsibility. I'm asking if someone here knows how the law would view it.

Anyway, maybe someone here has a friend who's a lawyer who could check this thread out.

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duty to inform

I'll tell you part of where I'm coming from. In the law, there are certain duties to inform. If you are a specialist in a field, an authority, certified, licensed, etc., there are situations where you must inform other parties about important information that you know from your profession. The example I always remember from my business law class is, suppose you have a garage sale and one of the things you are selling is some strange painting which you never really liked that you found in the house you inherited from your deceased father. It seems worthless to you so you give it a price of $10. Along comes a woman to your garage sale who looks it over carefully and then buys it from you for $10. A very strange woman because when she came up to you to buy it, her eyes seemed to be bugged out. A week later you see in the newspaper a picture of that woman holding the painting which turns out to be an original Picasso worth millions. It also turns out, you read, that the woman is a professional art appraiser. You call your lawyer. Because she is a professional in the fine art field, and from her profession has prior knowledge of the value of the painting, under the law, she had a duty to inform you before the purchase of the true value of the painting. You can sue her for the amount of the value, minus $10 and her standard finder's fee, or for the return of the painting, or something like that, I don't remember exactly the restitution.

It was a business law class so we didn't spend a lot of time on criminal law, but I would think, as in the example of this thread, any certified technician who would be expected to know about the dangers of a CRT, and who participated in this thread, and who saw that those dangers had not been warned about, had a duty to inform, under the law, about those dangers, and the failure to do so, if harm occurred, constituted criminal negligence.

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Whoa . . .

Hey,

First of all, "criminal" negligence means that the person has a reason to believe that their action or inaction will cause bodily harm. People are tossing around the term criminal as if they understand that a crime is being committed. That's way different from common negligence. I'm not proposing removing all warnings for working inside a compact Mac. All I'm saying is that the fear should lessened with decent instructions. Plus, real bodily harm is unlikely from a CRT shock. The examples earlier in this thread about infants and children may involve negligence but not on the part of the website or tech even if there is no warning. Just because harm occurs, it doesn't always mean that someone can be sued. And those infant examples are the best illustration of that.

William
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documentation of fatalities?

You can read through the link I provided above about criminal negligence and the quote I made "failure to forsee."
Non Feasance:"The non-performance of some act which ought to be performed." The duty to inform being the act which ought to be performed here.
I don't think criminal negligence has much to do with the defendant's reasoning, but rather the legal expectations. If you make a bridge out of straw and reason that your design is strong enough to support foot traffic, but it collapses the first time someone sets foot on it, that's criminal negligence.

I've searched around on the web, and I see a lot of people talking on forums about CRT's being lethal, but I've not found any documented cases. Maybe I'm not using the right keywords. I found this (warning: some profanity) thread in a forum where one person claims, "crt=death...I'm a pc tech and saw someone in class die doing this." Lots of testimonial and info on the dangers of CRT on that page. On another page here that "The lowest voltage for fatal electrocution I found in literature is 46 volts (in Patel & Lo, Stroke (1993), vol. 24 pp. 903-905)." I've learned that the word electrocution means a fatal shock--you only get one opportunity in your lifetime--so fatal electrocution is a redundancy, but I doubt most people know that. I think this is a case where the official definition is no longer valid due to popular usage. Is there a word for non-fatal other than shock?

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One last thing . . .

Hey,

Let's assume for the moment that I'm totally wrong. That CRTs do indeed equal death and anyone posting information about working inside compact Macs are criminally negligent and open to prosecution for damages or jail time or whatever.

So where are the lawsuits? I started restoring and fixing compact Macs around 1997. Even then, people were being scared stiff about working on compact Macs because of the CRT danger and warned about lawsuits for writing about various procedures. Yet, I know of not a single lawsuit in the last decade filed for this reason. Not one. Let's face it: The vintage community is pretty small and there are only about 3 degrees of separation between us.

So where are the lawsuits? With all the hype, some moron would be tempted to ram a screwdriver where the juice runs just so they could settle out of court. We're talking over a decade of thousands of people cracking open these little toasters and yet not one single hint of a lawsuit anywhere. Not one. Not one case of serious injury that I'm aware of. Not one. Plenty of stories about getting shocked but not one about physical harm.

How is that possible? How is it that of all the people on the LEM lists (and they had a list in the old days for just compact Macs that had hundreds of users), all the 'fritters, and all the others that use compact Macs know the stories about death, despair and lawyers and yet none of them have a verifiable story about physical damage or lawsuits arising out popping open these computers?

You all can derive your own conclusions, but the answer is pretty obvious to me. What we got here is the Sasquatch, the Piltdown Man, the Howard Hughes biography of Mac folklore. It's a bogus ogre and it should be dumped in a shallow grave.

William
www.williamahearn.com

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Re: no lawsuits

The sites I remember having details of opening a portable Mac had large warnings and disclaimers. Chat between technicians on the internet are not going to lead to lawsuits as they all should know better. Even adult victims in general, it would probably be hard starting a lawsuit since in order to get into the case, guidance or no guidance, they would be ignoring the warning that's right on the case--you're a big boy, you should know better--although I think you could probably dream up a scenario where a lawsuit is possible. A child is a different matter. If an adult directs a child to open the case regardless of the warning, you're probably not going to be able to point at the child and say, you should know better.

No, it wouldn't be surprising if there aren't any lawsuits out there, but I'm just pointing out that there seems to me the potential for a lawsuit, and am waiting for someone in the know to say yes or no.

Again, in the context of this thread my point is that you know nothing about the OP and his knowledge and abilities, nor his age, so not giving the warnings is dangerously careless. We don't need the toddler. If shyguy345 is twelve, gets shocked, the parents find out he was being guided--talked into, rather--opening the case, sounds like lawsuit material for me, although like I say, I don't know exactly who the lawsuit would be against--Tom as the overseer, mostly because he'd be the most accessible and cornerable. Certified technicians next, but finding participants and proving their participation might be too difficult unless they offer confession. So yeah, a lawsuit sounds difficult, but a good lawyer is a good lawyer.

And yeah, I read a lot of, "I could have died," and "he was lucky," and "it really gave me a shock," but except for that one guy I quoted above, in my quick search online, I'm not finding any references to actual documented cases of extreme harm, or even, "I'm paralyzed for life because of it" testimonials. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, or that it can't happen, though. Technician common sense says it could, right?

Anyway, in regard to warnings and disclaimers, I'm sure any legal adviser would tell you, whether the danger is not yet proven real or not, don't wait for it to be proven, and don't wait for a lawsuit to come at you before you begin, you cover your a** now.

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There is no wrath like...

I'll tell you another thing just to hammer home the point. Quite frankly, if I found my daughter dead or seriously injured on the floor next to an opened compact Mac, and found out it was because you guys told her to open it, I'd go after you with complete full enraged fury. There's no way you'd get away with it. There'd be no washing of hands.

~Peace

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Listen to you . . .

Dude,

What is your obsession with fried children? I mean really. Listen to yourself. This is no longer about the reality of electric shock of compact Macs or the responsibility of advice. Now, you're threatening people over imagined child-fryings. If you can't control your kids then maybe you should stick a finger in a socket somewhere and line your brainwaves up in a straight line. And what's with the washing of hands nonsense? Is that a reference to Pontius Pilate or Lady MacBeth? Either one and you're still the drama queen. Get a grip. There isn't a single case of physical damage to anyone as a result of cracking a Mac, yet in your fantasies a child is dead in front of an SE/30 and you're loading up the magnum like you're Charles Bronson ready to blow away 'fritters who might have some advice on a website. I can understand you getting outraged over internet sexual predators, phishing thieves and malicious hackers but a child cracking a Mac to . . . what? Add that Daystar accelerator that she bought on eBay with the money from the tooth fairy?

This conversation has crossed over to where the buses don't run and I'm not going to be stranded out on the yellow line waiting for Rod Serling to pull up in a hearse.

Aloha,

William
www.williamahearn.com

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Just giving you a sense of, i

Just giving you a sense of, if you really think there's no chance of a lawsuit, what kind of energy you could be up against.

washing of hands Yes Lady MacBeth too. It's a simple way of saying, "sorry, I'm not to blame." It's a common idiom that's been around for two millenium. It's a favorite phrase of prosecutors, as in, "he's trying to wash his hands of the guilt."

As to your position on the dangers of a CRT, from what I've read, you seem to be pretty alone on your opinion. Is anyone else here going to rally to your side that the dangers from a CRT are false?

Here, I've started a new thread for you to argue your position in:
http://www.applefritter.com/node/22353

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A new tact

Ok, in that other thread I just created, new information in the form of a detailed technical investigation of the high voltage dangers of a compact/portable CRT Mac (Classic, Classic II, SE/30, etc.), found here was presented which supports William's position that the electrocution fear is unfounded (electrocution=lethal), so we all should probably stop repeating the long-held consensus that the insides of a compact Mac can kill you. Best regards to William who has suffered a long time in frustration on the topic. What was always needed to counter the passed-down "it can kill you" claim was a solid, technically competent investigation which wasn't accomplished, unfortunately, until that LEM article which was posted this year. We'll be riding now on the assumption that the author, Tom Lee, knows what he's doing and his conclusions are correct. Some of the regulars here should be able to judge that.

So, with the fear level greatly lowered--although a warning about possible, not probable, shock still seems appropriate, right?--maybe the best way to approach the original topic of this thread is to suggest that, instead of shyguy345 doing this alone, that maybe he could talk his father into accompanying him in opening up the Classic II. There's a tinkering curiosity in most of us, right? Dad and son on an educational journey together. Might be fun for both. Now that he can be shown that we take the safety factor seriously, I'd think he might want to go for it, and maybe also, make some new friends along the way. And that Classic II may be rescued from the trash heap.

Shyguy345, are you still there? Where's Dad?

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At last

what could more profitably have been done much earlier in this exchange has now been done: Tom Lee's rational analysis of the danger of electric shock from a Compact AIO's CRT has been cited. Now geddoverit.

1) Leave the compact switched off, but still attached to the switched-off mains, for a week, or
2) Crank up the brightness of the display to full (not possible if a Classic or Classic II is not booted, because display brightness in these is software-controlled), listen for lack of hard drive activity, and then remove the plug from the AIO without switching it off.
3) Remove the case bucket with a Torx-15 driver that has an 8" shaft.
4) As long as the case bucket is off, keep away from the crt unless it is being worked on after discharge.
5) Real danger lies in the storage/filter capacitors on the power supply board (or inside the PSU's case) and their on-board exposed traces, which carry a high DC voltage and charge. Definitely do not fiddle with these before they have been demonstrated to have no remnant charge. This charge is the unstated real risk inside a Compact AIO.
Para. 1) above will avoid it. So should knowledge of the actuality rather than fear of the remote possibility.

de

PS: Tom Lee's Classic Mac Repair Notes, v2.0 is ©2000, revised 2007. He kindly allowed himself to be persuaded in 68KMLA discussions to publish the notes to a wider audience, but they have never been hidden from anyone with a thirst for knowledge.

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One last thing . . .

Hey,

You wrote:

"What was always needed to counter the passed-down "it can kill you" claim was a solid, technically competent investigation which wasn't accomplished, unfortunately, until that LEM article which was posted this year."

If you read the intro to that article, it originally appeared here, on applefritter.com, and got "lost" in a transition. My guess that transition was a year or so ago and that dates the actual information being available earlier than this year. How we all missed that is beyond me.

So now, a more reasonable and encouraging head's up can accompany any advice for working inside a compact Mac and maybe more of the little buggers will stay lit.

As for the veracity of Tom Lee, his article explains the lack of lawsuits and reliable reports of death or physical damage due to the demons inside the little Macs. So I feel a lot better since as a result of this conversation, I have a reliable link to send to people who persist in the drama of the rumor.

Thanks,

William
www.williamahearn.com

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Hello grannysmith. You add a

Hello grannysmith. You add a lot of good information there. Where have you been all this time? Did you just now happen upon this thread? You seem to have long since known about Tom Lee's findings.

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The Boy, The Father, and The Sad Mac

We have a young person under the alias of "shyguy" who opens this thread with an innocent enough post. He then posts only 3 times thereafter, rather tersely but to the point. The majority of this thread is then made up of (experienced?) Mac users fighting amongst themselves over something that is now largely irrelevant. For indeed, this "shyguy" (if he can be called 'shy' for having started a new thread, for goodness sake), has clearly stated his father will not allow him to fix his Mac. I assume that parental command came after he started this thread, as it would have not made any sense for him to have started this thread knowing full well his father would not allow him to fix his Mac. At any rate, the command has now been given, so how can any further advice help him? The only thing that could be done is for Santa to slip down his chimney (if he has one), and secretly fix the poor Mac for free, unbeknownst to the rather overbearing and inconsiderate father (all we can see/know of the father through a few terse comments in this thread).

At this stage, I am a bit bewildered. The father appears to not want the son to spend any money or even attempt to fix something that is broken! But how then did the son buy the Mac in the first place, on EBAY no less? Perhaps the son did this at a time when he had money but then lost a lot of money or otherwise did things that ticked off the father. But all this speculation is moot because the father says the boy cannot fix his Mac, which I assume remains true even if the fix was free and if the fix didn't require opening the case. Indeed, one could also assume the father would blow his top if Santa came down the chimney to fix the poor Mac for free. In such a case, I can only suggest the boy donate the Mac to a worthy cause and strive to make amends for whatever acts he committed to make his father act so harshly toward him.

And in closing, I would just like to say, Tom Lee's advice is sound indeed. CRTs in a Mac aren't as lethal as some contend -- yes indeed, you can work inside your classic compact Mac without having discharged the CRT and not die. Even so, Tom Lee's discharge method of "yanking the power cord" will easily and safely discharge the Mac, with no extra tools or cost required.

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Here's a thought. Maybe the f

Here's a thought. Maybe the father also had heard the "it will kill you" legend. Or even worse, maybe the father just plain hates Macs. I've met quite a few like that out there in PC land who usually are suffering from some form of ignorance or naivete.

Well, at the time that William and I began our exchange the thread had already pretty much died so our "majority of the thread" became quite useful for substantially establishing that that "something" (whatever that is) is irrelevant. Along the way I think we learned a few things, and established a great foothold on what became the topic of concern. We're all well armed now with some good information and a link so we can all go out and fight the nasty rumor. William's sense of solitary frustration has hopefully been slain, and I feel relieved of not having to sometimes be the nanny who has to speak the dreaded words that most others have been saying for a long long time. Think of all the various places everyone's head was at at the beginning of the thread and how much more unified they are now. I'd say, it's been time very well spent. A good example of a successful debate. Sometimes you just have to drive things hard, and for as much time as it takes, to squeeze out the truth, or a middle ground.

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i do think if you have a hear

i do think if you have a heart problem, pace maker or some other type of disorder, a shock like this could cause you to die. that is if you have a condition like these. it would be more from the sudden scare then from the shock. i would not know how one would react if they had a pacemaker and took the shock.

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I found that when my classic

I found that when my classic II did that sometimes if I just left it turned on for an hour or so it would boot up. But eventually I did take it apart and clean off the capacitors. The small electrolytic capacitors located on the mother board are what causes this, they were never really rated to last this long, so as a result 15 years later the electrolytic capacitors are now leaking over the motherboard.

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At last?

Hey,

Maybe it's just me but is there too much attitude in your post or what? You come off sounding like you're one of those inner-circle, macho Mac types who ridicule people because they don't have the hippest information that you've already grown tired of. And you've shown up late with a silly list that just supposes one set of mystical steps to supplant another. But then we don't have the "thirst" for knowledge that you supposedly have. Is that it? From what I get from google, Tom Lee's info on death from CRTs is only findable on Low End Mac. There is a PDF of his repair notes that is down-loadable. But more to the point, some of us (and I know I'm not alone in this) never needed Tom Lee to give us permission as much as we didn't need the fear mongers to hold us back.

So now I get it. You're the cowboy tech with the Mac secrets some of us never needed to begin with.

Yippie-Ki-Yay,

William
www.williamahearn.com

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wait...woohoo!!!!.....huh oh s***.........

Well my dad WAS nice enough to hand me a torx, but appantly its too short. and remember what i said:

he wont let me buy another torx.

now what!!!!!!!!

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Changing the story now?

Shyguy,

I'm afraid that I am very confused by your comments today. For in one of your posts above, you clearly stated that your father would not allow you to fix your Mac. To me, that means "even if you had the proper tools, you would not be allowed to fix it." Hence, I cannot understand your post today which is asking for additional advice on something your father does not condone.