Macintosh SE/30 "Micron XCeed" GreyScale Upgrade

Hey,

I'm not exactly clear on what you're asking. Do you want somebody to build the greyscale card or to install it?

Yep Yep!
I'd like ta know if someone can install it for me!

Later!

It'd probably be expensive to ship it back and forth to have someone do it for you.

Also sorta OT, grayscale on the internal display? I waaaant! Always had a soft spot for the SE/30... and a Color Classic I could mod the snot out of but the SE/30's much more attainable of course.

EDIT: As in a pretty standard SE/30... not the uberSE below, hehe!

-- Joshua

There's a few problems here... Do you have the XCeed greyscale card? If not, good luck. There were a few recently on eBay, but not recent enough for completed auctions to show it (eBay is getting worse by the minute... I swear it used to reach back months). Anyway, I believe they went for between $200-$400. It'd be cheaper to do one of those itx mods and run linux or Netbsd with Basilisk.... It would look the same, but run probably 100 times faster.

this guy kept it clean
and only made one mistake... which is to run windows on it instead of running something that can run Basilisk, like NetBSD.

The other problem is that the xceed card fits into the SE/30's expansion slot, which is right where you need to put both the network card (which, IMHO without one the SE/30 is worthless) and the processor upgrade, and if you're going to be using greyscale, it'd be nice to have a faster proc (say, a 50MHz 68030 or 40). Sounds undoable, but there is this guy in Japan that makes a special card for the SE/30 that, along with another L-type connecter, allows all this to be connected... but his adapter card thingy is pricy, I think $150-200.

And if you've gone this far, may as well max out the memory to 128mb and snag a IIfx or IIsi ROM simm for 32-bit clean memory

so... for
$10-$25 stock SE/30
$25-$45 SE/30 ethernet card
$25-$45 Processor upgrade card
$25-$45 L-type connecter jobby
$150-$200 special expansion card that connects everything
$150-$450 XCeed Greyscal card
$20-$60 8X 16MB 30-pin SIMM
$25-$50 IIfx or IIsi ROM SIMM

$495-$920 for the sweetest actual SE/30 that ever was.

Kind of puts it in perspective, no?

I've sort of given up on that... happy with the B&W, but I did get a network card, 50MHz proc upgrade, maxed the ram and got a IIfx ROM, and installed NetBSD... so its a cute server now, and somehow I kept it under $100.

Windows runs Basilisk II very well, including network and CD access.

it's running windows! (lets not start, ok?)

well, it got me thinking, so I just checked out the new Pentium M ITX boards and they aren't as cheap as I thought... the new board with 1.7 proc ends up being @$532 US, before HD, before memory, before the video problem, before the SE/30 shell... so its not nearly as worth it as a grabbing a refurbished Mac Mini for under $400 and doing the Mac mini in a SE/30 mod... which would be pretty easy considering you wouldn't even have to disassemble the mini AND you could just run Tiger... and just use Classic

I'm not sure, but my money's on a 1.25GHz G4 outpacing a 1.7GHz Pentium M with OS X... and with the itx, you don't have firewire (though the board does support up to 2GB of RAM. But who knows... maybe the Mac Mini does, too? Anyone tried sticking a 2 GB stick in there? Do they exist?

Price is no object ....

No problemo ....

I thought this Hack did use basilisk II on windows.

Catmistake has been at this longer than I have, and his prices are pretty good. If you are starting with a stock se/30, then you have quite a few $$ to spend to get it to be the uber se/30. I would also add another item to the shopping list. Chances of your stock power supply still being worth a flip to power all that stuff is pretty low. You will also have to spring for a supply. The same guy (Manabu Sakai) making the PDS adapter you'll need also makes a beefed up supply. He is NOT cheap. I'm currently looking to shoehorn an old AT supply into the se/30 power supply- which should prove much cheaper.

Ebay is a pain trying to find completed item prices, but if you are persistant using Google's cached pages, you can reach back a little further. It looks like about 4 or so Micron Xceed cards (some with grayscale adapter) have sold on eBay this year. The prices range from $200 to $750 (for a whole se/30). They can be bought, but you will have to watch for a couple of months. I have looked into cloning the Xceed card, and barring Micron handing me PLD and ASIC info, it is WELL beyond anthing I can do. The grayscale adapter itself is a whole other story. If you have a Micron Xceed Color 30, 30HR, etc, then the grayscale board that plugs to the CRT is definately clonable. I could, given the time, make you one.

If you are dyin' for a tricked out original se/30, then it can be done. You might luck into parts at a thrift store, but you probably won't. It will cost you approaching a grand to do from scratch- the value of which is entirely up to you. I'm opening myself to ridicule, but I am on a similar journey- though trying to find the parts cheaply, rather than spend a king's ransom. Remember, when it is all said and done, you will have a almost 20 year old machine. Just like a 20 year old car, it will require ongoing repair to keep running Capacitors fail, resistor specs wander, flybacks give up, and on and on. You will have to continue to tinker with your investment to have it retain anything like the jack you put into it.

As far as finding someone to do the work, once you've sourced the parts; that is probably doable at this forum. At least speaking for myself...

Somewhere on the web (or perhaps in the holding of some 68k fans...) there exists a disk which claims to have the source code for the DeclROM of the XCEED SE/30 card. It also has the source for the PLD--supposedly everything needed to clone the board.

Story was that it didn't work, or was encrypted, or something. Anybody remember any more than this?

I feel like I should chime in with the story of my own monster SE/30. I traded for the machine from a professor of mine about 1999. 4MB, dead hard drive. I started tinkering with it, scored some 4MB SIMMS, and had some fun. It started to boot irregularly, and I put it in a closet.

Mark Benson and I went halfsies on an eBay auction for a pair of 40Mhz Turbo040 cards. Went into the closet.

I dug through every IIsi I ever found at the recycling and thrift places. Scored an ethernet card and some 16MB SIMMs. Also scored a SuperMac ACCELERATED 24-BIT video card for PDS!!

Finally, I found on eBay an auction for "misc mac cards". Looking at the picture, I guessed that what I saw was the DayStar Adaptor for IIsi. I bought the auction for $10 or so, and I lucked out. Out came the hard and floppy drives. In went 80MB of RAM, Turbo040, Ethernet, and an 18GB 10,000RPM hard drive I had floating around. Replaced all the capacitors on the motherboard, swapped out the still-good non-sony PSU for a Sony PSU (supposedly better).

I love my SE/30 and I use it every single day. Was it worth the 6 years and about $100 I spent on it? Absolutely. Could I guarantee that I could reproduce it within 6 years and $100? Never. That IIsi adaptor is just too rare (and the proper SE/30 one even more so!)

If you want an awesome SE/30, build it. You'll enjoy the process almost as much as the result.

My future plans are to start another awesome SE/30 build, with a 030-socket CPU upgrade instead of PDS, to allow me to fit that Spectrum 8/24 board (along with Ethernet) for accelerated 24-bit external video out.

That said, building a 20-year-old classic Mac is less risky than building a 20-year-old classic car--My Dodge 600 convertible got hit by a Pepsi truck and probably wont' be fixed for two years, since I can only work on it during the summer. I don't have to worry about that with my SE/30, though there ARE power surges...

CaryMG, TylerS..
I hope I didn't come across as too humbug. I really can't talk, seeing as how I'm in the midst of the same thing. I'm glad you had better luck thrift shopping it. The Goodwills around here won't even take computers anymore- 'course I haven't been to the Vietnam Vets in a while. I agree with your bottom line, if you want to build it, then absolutely go for it. If you choose to do it quickly, it will come at a price. If you have time, you may be able to score some parts cheap. I've heard the same "you'll never believe what I found at the thrift shop" stories.

The PDS adapter and the Micron Xceed card are going to prove to be the the most difficult parts. Artmix (Google it) is currently the only person making the PDS adapters (and other cool goodies), at least until someone else reverse engineers one ;)- but be prepared for a $175 price tag.

TylerS- I heard that same urban legend, except the version I heard says that that same disk also had the schematic. Apparently someone was hawking these magic disks on eBay 2001 or so. I've got a couple of leads (mostly from old forums), but I haven't run them down. I'm certainly game to try a cloning. I finally scored my Color30HR last week, and was a bit daunted once I got a good look at the board. I'd be pretty darn pleased with myself if I pulled that off- even with the magic disk you've mentioned. I did manage to find the card's inventors and their whereabouts, but I'm a little hesistant to call these folks with a bunch of stupid questions. If anyone on the forum has access to the PLD code and a schematic, then I'll set to work.

I say not to be worried about contacting them. Most of the people who were working on these sorts of things are engineers (read: people who are capable of being interested in things), and are just flattered that there are still people who care about the work that they were doing 15+ years ago.

1) This is Artmix's current offer: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DayStar-Turbo601-100Hz-for-Mac-IIci-PDS_W0QQitemZ5824897791QQcategoryZ80031QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem, whence you can e-mail him.

2) The following is a diagnosis of a card about which I should be happy to have your opinions, please. Assuming it to be a known species, I shall spare you the Latin text that is usual for new species, nor shall I prompt you with my guesses as to its intended use.

Rectangular, 14cm x 5cm, one-sided. 6 x square ICs, 3 each with 5 or 7 pins a side. Original markings covered with paper labels: 1220, 1230, 1270; 1241, 1250, 1261. 4 x 24-pin DIP ICs. 1 x LC PDS connector male perpendicular to the board. 1 x IIci PDS/cache connector female parallel to board. Maker: DayStar Digital 1992. Part(?) 104113-71.

It was connected to a PowerCache 40 (104806-123) when I received it, but not necessarily functionally matched to it. It is the bottom card in http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5226980434&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:31

With thanks
de

Not that I get to see many Daystar adapters. Some of us got into the game too darn late. Unless I'm sadly mistaken (which I am frequently), your "mystery" card is the Daystar Adapter to fit the Universal Powercache to a LC. Lookit this link:

http://www.donyaun.com/SERVICES/ILLUST/DAYSTAR/LCADPT.html

Some much more sage person correct me if I'm wrong...

Artmix has always got some stuff going. He must have a stash of those T601's. I think he was selling another a month or so back.

Someone might be very happy to see that adapter...

With a little artist's licence, that's it to a 'T'. The link that you posted was one of many that I hadn't found. Oddly, or no, its existence was the only indicator that I had that DayStar intended the PowerCache for use also in LC Macs. Even then it seems to me that it would lie terrible close to the logic board, and the PowerCache card has no supports or standoffs to counter its weight. There is also the disadvantage that ethernet is wiped out if the LC slot is used, but then, we have learnt to live with that in the SE/30, no? No!

de

Live with it until I buy the TwinSpark adapter or make a right angle mod to the Asante pass-through connector. Daystar did get a lot of mileage out of their Universal Powercache. They put that in everything but a 486-66. As thin as the LC looks, I'd have to agree- it'd be a tight fit. BTW, that link was courtesy Google Images (looking for Daystar adapter) Another interesting pic is associated with that same link above. If you use the numbers on the left to navigate, #10 (I think) shows the entire Daystar Universal Powercache adapter line up. So now I finally see what the se/30 adapter is supposed to look like!!!

Will that LC adapter fit in your LCII?

A set of Daystar cards just went off om ebay.au just recently for a couple of bucks each - from memory I think I worked out they were the LC set too.

pmjett, man, you're skills must be mad indeed if you can dupe that board.
Good luck, and Godspeed!!

Don't forget about The Poor Man's Grey Scale Project

This hack is in some ways superior than the Xceed card, in that it leaves you with a 640 X 480 greyscale display!! However, the aspect ratio is not necessarily optimized for the SE/30 screen (looks ok, I guess), and it also involves killing an Apple High-Resolution Monochrome Monitor. They aren't easy to come by... and they are pretty neat in their own right... I have one, and I can't see myself sacrificing it, its in such great shape. But if I found another...

I don't really have the skills to do it (involves another video card of some kind, and there's where I wouldn't know what to do even if I had one.... ), but take a look, I'm sure YOU do, and perhaps someday I can coax you into my employ.

Yeah. Mad. Just plain mad, probably no skillz. It would be an extremely ambitious project. I might stand a chance in heck if I had the necessary info for the 4 16V8's, a 27C256 (?), and whatever you'd call the custom "Micron" branded part- in my limited vernacular an ASIC or FPGA or something. The patent for the board references a symposium proceeding about using ASICs to handle bus i/o and video (written by the lead inventor) But dude, lemme tell you, that board is all surface mount (excepting one Maxim part I haven't looked up) with beaucomp through holes.

As I was telling CaryMG, the grayscale adapter that sits on the CRT is a snap to dupe up. The hardest part would be sourcing the connectors without robbing power supplies.

I looked at that Poor Man's grayscale yesterday by coincidence. That is a slick trick. I suppose one could use a b/w Radius card (like the one in a currently running eBay auction)? I liked moving the yoke and PCB assembly over from a 12" monitor. That is classy. I also went down that mini-itx road a while back, and emailed that guy from the windows box above. I agreed with your assessment- that is a clean mod- which is exactly what I told him. I had one of those Pentium M mini-itx boards- and it cost about $500. Which made it prime to hock when our cash got tight. It'd end up costing about the same as doing a se/30 up completely without scrounging.

Find another b/w high res monitor and we'll do a transplant!

I've got one of the Apple greyscale monitors collecting dust in the basement that I'll offer, providing any modding gets photographed and posted here. (and Dang, just saw another one go out in the trash at work about a month ago)

I can even extract the guts to save on shipping. I've tested the monitor back when I was going to do a 475-in-se/30 project and lost interest.

Hmmm...also think I've got a radius two-page-display card somewhere.

Either, or both, for shipping costs from Canada.

Now there's an offer you don't get every day. I'm game- though I may have to enlist some of catmistake's pocket book. We can chat off forum if you like,
pmjett at hotmail dot com

thanks for the generous offer.

If you do the mod to an SE/30 instead of an SE, please at least sell the SE/30 board--they're getting a little hard-to-come-by. :-)

I'd hack up an SE, though. The case is identical except for the printing on the front.

(still kicking myself for painting my SE/30 instead of painting an SE and transplanting all the parts from my SE/30 into the painted case)

You're right. I forgot! Now I've got to figure out which machine to put under the knife. All that gear just doesn't slip right into a SE case. I might actually get another box to do the mod with- maybe one like the fellow is trying to sell on eBay right now (SE/30 case with a SE logic board). Either way, if everything comes to pass, I'll give the Fritterers a crack at the innards.

I'm down with it.
If you don't mind taking the time and care to get the right stuff out of it, PM me, we'll switch to email and set it up. You're the best... sorry about that Serenity stuff, I can make it up to you.

lessie... 5 complete boxes (at least) and another 2 for parts...

I'm switchin' mod plotting to email. I've got yours from when I bought a IIfx ROM off you.

You are certainly strapped with se/30 boxes. My wife would have divorced me. (I thought the Xceed card would do it, but lo we are still married...)

Maybe CaryMG will pick his thread back up, I'm curious.

I had this on my SE/30 many years ago. Sold the card to someone, and the SE/30 to my employer at the time, though I now have the SE/30 back.

Anyway, it requires a couple things. First, as I recall, was a special version of the Micron XCeed PDS card. This card could give you 640x480 on an *external* color monitor. I can't recall how many colors, but I think I bought the one that gave you millions. Not all XCeed cards had this feature.

Anyway, the greyscale adapter absolutely, positively, needs the color card to work. To get the 256 greys per pixel, the video memory has to come from someplace, so it comes from the XCeed card, since the Mac only has 1 bit per pixel mapped. As I recall, the greyscale adapter plugged onto the color board, and replaced the connector that went to the back of the CRT. Plug it all together, close the case, and instantly you have a 640x480 color display externally, and a whatever standard resolution is Mac greyscale display inside the computer. Very nice.

As for it taking up your PDS slot, well, yeah, that cold be a problem if you really want to speed up the processor. But for networking, recall that there were plenty of 10baseT SCSI soulutions out there that passed the SCSI through, so you lost nothing save one SCSI ID. Search for them from Daystar, Farallon & others on eBay.

And there's always LocalTalk... (ducking & running...)

No worries, catmistake.

In PMs now talking shipping, and I've got to dig the monitor out and give it a quick once-over.

what are the odds, I wonder?

Anyway, the way I see it the problem with the PMGP, as is, is that the resolution of the old compacts, 512 X 342, doesn't scale to 640 X 480... wrong ratio... I think the basillisk hack above looks so good because it is 800 X 600 (I think?) and even though that's the same ratio as 640 X 480, because everything is smaller, you don't notice it as much.

But if we could find a graphics card that displays 512 X 342, or close to that ratio... it would look pretty darn good... so, is there a card out there with 800 X 534.375 native resolution? I know the Color Classic and the CC II use that resolution... but they don't really have video cards, do they? Are there any cards with a resolution that is just slightly wider than the 640X480 or 800X600 ratio resolutions?

Where I lose it on the PGMP is when he is talking about the graphics card. Is Stuart being intentionally vague so people don't electrocute themselves? Will any graphics card do? or does it have to interface with the SE/30 mobo natively? or WHAT!!??

Also, another big problem is that PSU. It can't go there. All sorts of cards need to be sticking up through there for proc accelleration and networking. So... is there an alternative PSU that can do the job?

Someone should write this guy who has a good aesthetic and a clear concept of the task, but also who has the language to interface intelligently with him, and then come back and translate for us.

edit

I think this is why the display from the Duo2300c would look great, besides the fact that the size is right, the resolution is 640X400, which isn't exact, but a wider ration than 512X342, but twice as close as 640X480...

I love the SE/30, but I'd so rather have a start on that project... I know, the holy grail, but then it would beg for a mini mobo, with juice, and OS X, and then plenty of room for many many HDs and stuff, and a nice PSU

Update: Sent shipping costs to pmjett for monitor innards ($13 CDN) and Radius Two-Page Display card.

Also scanned card for Nubus Mafia project:

eeun.... I'm realizing... I can do the ring swap on the back of the tube, that's how I did the Green Green Jade...

What I need the help with is with the graphics card... If you understand what Stuart is doing there, a good howto explaination might be all that is necessary... I know how to adjust the focus/vert/horiz/width/height stuff...

Otherwise, I'm paying shiping a paying shipping to you of that stuff... plus an se/30 to you... which will have to be shipped back to me... not to mention the work you'll do... sounding like a lot of bother

Can you look into wtf Stuart is talking about when he is just slapping a graphics card into an se/30 with the ring and electronics from the Apple Hi-Rez Mono Mon? Also, do it with an eye not necessarily to duplicate his work... I think a better graphics card can be found... one closerin ratio (not size) to 512 X 342... any help with brainstorming would be great before diving in

And that card is wild... whats the resolution? What's the significance?

catmistake,
I'm not tryin' to step on toes- I think I may have misunderstood the who's and wherefors on this project. I have completely lost who's doing what (other than eeun, who's graciously providing the parts). If I can be of service, I'll be glad to help. Whether that is just moral support, Dremel tool man, or non-licensed electrician is entirely up to you. I'm just here to help, if needed.

As far as Stuart's project- I just looked it over again. Ostensibly this project is about getting grayscale outta a se/30 without spending $500 for a Micron Card, I think. To that end, you'd want to do this on the cheap- so you'd use that 12" monitor you had collecting dust, and an old grayscale radius card to drive it with (since they aren't as sought after as the Micron). It looks like Stuart's project mutated into using a 475 mobo in the se/30, driving the analog board and yoke assembly of a M0400 monitor, in turn driving the 9" CRT of the poor se/30 whose case was being used for the whole thing. It sounds like the 475 mobo has video onboard, so a radius card would indeed be moot.

Now, if we were going to use the se/30's case and mobo, then our parts list would be:
1 se/30 case, motherboard, CRT, and PSU
1 grayscale PDS video card (enter the Radius card here), to drive the monitor
1 yoke assembly from the M0400 monitor
1 analog board from the M0400 monitor
1 HV supply from said monitor (I guess, I don't know how the 12" hi res monitor is laid out internally.

The se/30 logic board, fitted with PDS Radius Grayscale card would connect to the M0400 monitor- except we'd have put everything from the M0400 into the se/30 case except the 12" CRT!

The radius card is 640x480, and would indeed not be the right ratio. You'd just have to crunch it down to fit the limiting 9" CRT measurement (the height), and then adjust the width appropiately to make the aspect ratio the 1.333 that the old M0400 electronics is expecting. You'd end up with some emptiness on the edges in one direction, by my crummy calculations, about 3/8" on either side.

As I said, I reckon it's all about grayscale on the cheap- in this case about $13 CDN

Thanks for spelling that out... now it doesn't sound too difficult...

So... the radius card... has a db-15 connector? and you just link that up to a male-male Apple monitor cable and then to the female end, connected to the electronics and yoke from a AppHiRezMonoMon (And then adjust the video)? I've looked at the card... (I assume that's it above) and I don't see any way to connect anything TO it... how did THAT drive a 2 page display?

also... problem getting all 3, proc upgrade, ethernet, & video board, to all share the PDS... but I think I can figure it out.

What other PDS video cards were available for the SE/30 (and do IIsi PDS graphics cards exist?)

...that I have, the Two-Page Display, needs some background.

It has a single BNC connector on a breakout that went in the SE/30's external expansion bay (if you look at the circuit-side of the scans, J2 is where the wire out to the BNC connector attaches.

"Two Page Display" refers to the ability of the Radius monitor this was driving to display two portrait-oriented pages side by side. A gimmick, from a time when big monitors and higher resolutions were a big deal.

The card is fixed-frequency, so it may not connect to the greyscale monitor, and I'm not even sure if the card supports greyscale or b&w.

I think Stuart had the right idea in going for the LC475 in se/30 case. There's more case cutting, but less cost and fiddling with video cards. But if you really want that compact Mac screen resolution, then that's not the best option.

as facinating as it all is (seriously, I spent an hour reading about video cards), I'm now leaning toward a different hack...
So the mini w/ LCD is problematic... but maybe an iBook would work. Already has an inverter board, and then the big problem becomes how to get that inverter board to talk to a 2300c display... but I live in the technology corridor of VA, so finding some electronic genii shouldn't be too hard. The rest of it I can fake.

CRTs are cool, but what can be done once the LCD holy grail is solved... with all that space... its just too tempting.

pmjett, btw, unless eeun wants your electronics, if the monitor is in good shape, still contrasty, I may be interested in the whole thing (to leave it intact). I've gotten so much use out of mine... I just dig it, I can't explain, and wouldn't mind having 2. May be a while before I have the kind of $ to ship something that heavy.

Well. That means that all that stuff I said- that was "in theory." *grin* I've been cookin' dinner, and not surfing- but a cursory look at monitorworld.com says the Radius TPD monitors were grayscale. I haven't the slightest whether the RadiusWare would allow you one page instead of the two that it was designed for. I reckon a single BNC connector would mean composite video input. That would put a wrinkle in things. The se/30 on eBay I mentioned like 200 posts back still has 3 days, and a Radius Pivot card. The resolutions are better, the output is 15 pin, and I'm pretty sure it's grayscale. My apologies for handing down your Radius's resolution from on high, eeun- I read the wrong line on Gamba's matrix.

The LC475 is probably a simpler solution, I'm funny about just using the shell for mods. The mini-itx machine is pretty, but it has nothing to do with se/30's except the case. Putting a mac-mini in would be skippy too, but same deal... It's my hangup, YMMV. Of course applying the KISS principle says Stuart might be right.

Catmistake- if you want to try the radius pivot card, we can make it happen.

catmistake-
She's yours, I've got enough projects. eeun has the innards priced at $13 CDN. The Apple TIL lists the hi-res monitor at like 17 lbs, so it would probably double the shipping. Good luck putting a LCD in. That would be pretty cool- couple it with Artmix's scsi to compact flash, and you could fit all the se/30's guts and your mod in the same box with room to spare!

eeun- thanks again for your offer!

*This thread back to it's regularly scheduled programming of Micron Xceed stuff*

WOW !!!! lol

Thanks so MUCH guys, for all the help -- but it seems WAY too complicated for me !! lol
Thanks again!!