Logical problem with Apple II europlus error and random freeze

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
Logical problem with Apple II europlus error and random freeze
AttachmentSize
Image icon IMG_5137.jpeg1.24 MB
Image icon IMG_5136.jpeg1.3 MB
Image icon IMG_5133.jpeg885.17 KB

I turned on my europlus today after a long time and I randomly find these errors, what could it be? Thank you

dorkbert's picture
Online
Last seen: 22 min 42 sec ago
Joined: Apr 12 2009 - 16:33
Posts: 363
have you checked the RAM?

have you checked the RAM?

Offline
Last seen: 1 day 17 hours ago
Joined: Apr 26 2016 - 08:36
Posts: 650
Looks like a RAM issue to me

Looks like a RAM issue to me.

Have you tried the power-on-self-test to see if you get any memory faults?

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
I haven't tried changing RAM,

I haven't tried changing RAM, can I swap them leaving only the first row? does it work the same? I didn't know there was a self-test on europlus, on 2e I press apple apple, how do you perform the self-test here?

CheshireNoir's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 15 hours ago
Joined: Dec 28 2019 - 05:20
Posts: 181
There's no built in RAM test but...

Hey AppleWoz,

Yes you can run with just the first bank of 16. In fact, while you diagnose things, it's recommended to run just 16k at a time as it's a lot faster to isolate.

When I was diagnosing my own Apple II europlus, this little machine code routine was my life saver. It allowed me to test my RAM and I was able to find the problem.

(It wasn't the RAM on the main board. It was on the 16k Language card)

 

https://www.applefritter.com/comment/61119#comment-61119

 

Hope this helps you too!

 

PS. One of the big problems I had with the europlus was how corroded all the pins and sockets were. I ended up cleaning all of the chips (Following ESD precautions)  carefully, applied deoxit to all the sockets and got it working!

 

Chesh

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
I did the cleaning work

I did the cleaning work before putting it away and I kept it in a dry place, the contacts are shiny and clean, I'll try swapping the RAM to understand if that's the problem

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
Update: try various

Update:

 

try various combinations of ram on the first slot at the bottom, nothing to do, same exact situation, errors and freezes

Online
Last seen: 40 min 58 sec ago
Joined: Jun 18 2010 - 13:54
Posts: 727
Could be many different

Could be many different things. First off, are all of the pictures you posted taken after the machine was first turned on AFTER BEING OFF FOR AT LEAST ONE MINUTE? If not, that could cause what you are seeing.

 

The other issue I see is that you are crashing into the monitor at locations in the F0 ROM. That could also be at fault. Please post screen shots after going into the monitor and typing F120L F150L <return>. Or after it crashes whatever address is displayed (minus 5-10 bytes).

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
IMG_5204.jpeg
they were also done by turning it off for 10-15 minutes, same result, obviously I also want to say that the power supply was completely delivered and the voltages are all excellent, I turned it on to do the test you told me and yes and it froze while I was writing, I turned it off and on again and this screen appeared, I also turned it off for 3:4 minutes now this screen always appears
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
IMG_5209.jpeg

this morning it turned on but always with the same problem, double beep, error on the screen and when I try to write something and give a return it freezes completely

Online
Last seen: 40 min 58 sec ago
Joined: Jun 18 2010 - 13:54
Posts: 727
If you can't type after the

If you can't type after the asterisk prompt, then the previous commands I suggested won't work. It's possible the F8 ROM is also not working. Assumnig you've already tried removing and re-inserting every chip (especially all of the ROMs) then I'd suggest one of the following approaches:

 

1. Use a scope or logic probe to test all of the CPU, data bus, address bus, and memory circuits.

2. Get a board that has a dead RAM test utility such as the MultiROM or ROMX. Both of these will also replace the ROMs with a known good image. This can run even if the RAM, ROM, keyboard, display, and I/O circuits are not working,

 

Hope that helps.

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
I can try as a simple test

I can try as a simple test with a diagnostic floppy if it doesn't crash and test the roms

CVT
CVT's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 10 min ago
Joined: Aug 9 2022 - 00:48
Posts: 951
Have you tried just flexing

Have you tried just flexing the motherboard and reseating the ROMs to see if anything changes? If it does, you have a bad socket connection somewhere.

Offline
Last seen: 1 day 18 hours ago
Joined: May 31 2022 - 18:18
Posts: 208
So like others have suggested

So like others have suggested RAM is a prime suspect but I'm gonna take a slightly different path...

 

First do you have a multimeter? Have you checked the voltages? With a IIe you should be able to test the supply without the main board connected. This is a good first step. Voltages should match the values printed on he supply (at least the US supplies always had the pinout voltages printed on the supply case).

If the supply voltages test fine, remove all cards from the system. I know this doesn't help with loading disks, but we're starting simple and working out...

What happens when powering up with no cards connected (this includes no disk controller nor memory expansion)?

Do you break to the basic prompt? That's the ] If not system does not go directly to the basic prompt you may need to ctrl-reset to break out.

In either case, you should not end up in the monitor (the monitor is the * prompt) 

If you land in the monitor (the * prompt) skip below to Monitor Crash

 

If you're good at probing a live system may be worth checking voltage on the main board. If you're not trained in how to do this safely don't do this.

 

Try the built in self test, either right-apple key when power on or both apple keys when powering on. I can't remember which is right for the euro-iie.

 

If you've run the self test and got the Kernel OK message it's time to dig deeper...  you can try adding a card at a time back in (when unpowered of course!) 

Monitor Crash

Could still be RAM, ROM or anything else.

Try the monitor memory test to check the lower 48K of memory... this is a litle difficult but follow exactly as described and when you see a <KEY> it means to press that key not type it out, so <SPACE> means press the space bar, <RETURN> is the return key.

If you're at a basic prompt ']'enter:

] CALL -151<RETURN>

 

At the monitor prompt enter:

] C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:0 N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 265:FF N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 34:14<SPACE><RETURN>

 

The screen should clear black then white and repeat until you reset but the bottom 4 lines are text so they will alternate with the black/white change. If there is an error the system will beep and an address will be printed at the bottom of the screen this will identify where the first RAM problem exists. This is still a first few steps in a long process... will wait to hear how things pan out.

 

After typing all that  I noticed the other Jeff has been involved... I'll post anyway. =)

 

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
jeff d wrote:So like others
jeff d wrote:

So like others have suggested RAM is a prime suspect but I'm gonna take a slightly different path...

 

First do you have a multimeter? Have you checked the voltages? With a IIe you should be able to test the supply without the main board connected. This is a good first step. Voltages should match the values printed on he supply (at least the US supplies always had the pinout vo

the voltages of the power supply are perfect as I wrote above I delivered it entirely, I managed to give the command call -151 and it gives me this
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 18 hours ago
Joined: May 31 2022 - 18:18
Posts: 208
AppleWoz wrote: managed to
AppleWoz wrote:
 managed to give the command call -151 and it gives me this

 

Whoops, I jus tnoticed a typo in my previous message, I incorrectly had a BASIC prompt  instead of the monitor prompt. I copied the call -151 line for the formatting, but forgot to update the prompt!

Sorry, I know that was confusing. The astrick is the monitor prompt and that's where you should enter this as shown to run the memory test:

 

C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:0 N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 265:FF N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 34:14<SPACE><RETURN>

 

S.Elliott's picture
Online
Last seen: 1 hour 45 min ago
Joined: Jun 23 2022 - 16:26
Posts: 202
Faulty ROM or bad LS138 ROM selection

Jeffmazur is right, this is a ROM-related fault -- not RAM.  The printed messages depicted in IMG_5137 and IMG_5133 indicate that the CPU executed a bad byte from the F0 ROM, but that doesn't necessarily mean the ROM chip itself is bad.

Most likely, there's a faulty 74LS138 at motherboard location F12 activating more than one ROM at the same time.  Several photos suggest bus conflicts caused by activating multiple ROMs at the same time -- and two of those photos suggest a specific conflict between the E0 and F0 ROMs.  (eg: the second photo in comment #10)

 

Inexpensive test:

There are four 74LS138 chips in the US Apple II, so the Europlus is undoubtedly similar.  The evidence suggests the chip at F12 is bad, but you might be able to "borrow" one of the other ones as a test:

  • H2 - expansion slot device selection (not required if all slots are empty)
  • H12 - expansion slot ROM selection (not required if all slots are empty)
  • F12 - motherboard ROM selection
  • F13 - motherboard IO

Make sure the expansion slots are empty, then try borrowing a 74LS138 from location H12 or H2 to replace the suspicious one at F12.  If that enables you to start the computer and use BASIC, then the original 74LS138 was faulty and needs to be replaced.

tulack's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 25 min ago
Joined: Oct 20 2023 - 14:21
Posts: 59
jeff d wrote:Try the monitor
jeff d wrote:

Try the monitor memory test to check the lower 48K of memory... this is a litle difficult but follow exactly as described and when you see a <KEY> it means to press that key not type it out, so <SPACE> means press the space bar, <RETURN> is the return key.

If you're at a basic prompt ']'enter:

] CALL -151<RETURN>

 

At the monitor prompt enter:

] C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:0 N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 265:FF N 266<265:BFFEM 266<265:BFFEV 34:14<SPACE><RETURN>

 

 

 

I also decided to try the memory of mine.Thanks for sharing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Offline
Last seen: 1 day 18 hours ago
Joined: May 31 2022 - 18:18
Posts: 208
That's exactly what' should
tulack wrote:
I also decided to try the memory of mine.Thanks for sharing
 

That's exactly what should happen with good RAM! Clear black (0) then white (FF) and repeat until there's an error or user resets/powers off. This baiscally tests for stuck bits, could use other values like AA/55 or even A5/5A for fun with other charactes/colors. 

 

Please tell me more about the board! Thought it was a Europlus, but it doesn't look like one.  So many things missing like the slots and ROMs or maybe that's a ROMX installed ot the right? 

I really don't know what I'm looking at here. lol

 

Oh wait, you're not the OP... is that a II clone board? 

Online
Last seen: 1 hour 33 min ago
Joined: Jul 5 2018 - 09:44
Posts: 2464
It is definitely a clone

It is definitely a clone board.  It looks like it was probably made from Mike Willegal's Rev0 gerbers with the Logan Greer added Trademark violations (Apple logo).  It's using a substitute for the ROMs and the CHARGEN ROM also.  I don't see any bodges to fix Rev0 bugs,byt they may be done on the back side of the board.  Also note that they used a different power supply connector than Apple.  I don't know why people start with Rev0 boards, they have a lot of problems like video syncing, etc., and limitations like only 4 colors in Hi-Res.  Starting with something at least Rev 7 if not one of the later RFI boards or sone of the clone designs like Unitron would really be better in a lot of ways.  Some of the clone designs integrate useful things like the 16k RAM card, direct EPROM support and sometimes larger density EPROMs like 2732 or even 2764.

 

tulack's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 25 min ago
Joined: Oct 20 2023 - 14:21
Posts: 59
softwarejanitor wrote:It is
softwarejanitor wrote:

It is definitely a clone board.  It looks like it was probably made from Mike Willegal's Rev0 gerbers with the Logan Greer added Trademark violations (Apple logo). 

 

Yes 

 

softwarejanitor wrote:

It's using a substitute for the ROMs and the CHARGEN ROM also.

 

Yes

 

softwarejanitor wrote:

I don't see any bodges to fix Rev0 bugs,byt they may be done on the back side of the board.

 

I didn't know about all those errors.  It was a personal challenge.  I've never done anything like this before.  She didn't have any knowledge of electronics.

 

https://www.applefritter.com/content/construction-my-apple-ii-rev-0-replica

 

 

 

Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Joined: Apr 27 2022 - 10:32
Posts: 38
I'm waiting for the board ROM

I'm waiting for the board ROM to arrive to test, the RAM is good and I also assume everything else from the tests carried out

Log in or register to post comments