Apple /// and /// Plus rgb and composite video questions

14 posts / 0 new
Last post
Online
Last seen: 14 min 30 sec ago
Joined: Dec 21 2017 - 14:19
Posts: 83
Apple /// and /// Plus rgb and composite video questions

I'm trying to find specific information about the Apple /// and /// plus video outs.  Alot of sites claim the composite output of the Apple /// is monochrome. I only own an Apple /// Plus and my composite video out seems to be in color. So is this something Apple remedied from the original model /// into the plus?I get the impression the first model /// had only black and white composite video and later the /// Plus had color composite NTSC video but I would like afirmation from you guys since i dont have the hardware.I found an old mod to wire up a circuit to use the RGB out port (I assume on the original model ///) to connect a standard rgb color monitor: https://apple3.org/Documents/Schematics/ConsortiRGB.pngThat may be a fun project but first Id like to get to the bottom of the B/W vs Color composite question.This schematic shows only B/W composite going out the J-10 connector (composite out on back of ///), but does show color NTSC on J-5 pin 12 (RGB Connector) https://apple3.org/Documents/Schemat...eo%20Logic.jpgHope you guys can answer some of these questions,Edit: I tried both pins 12 and 11 on the RGB connector I am getting color from both, but they are not the same. Pin 11 is giving me the same output as the composite output on the back of the /// (which I mentioned is in color on my Plus). Pin 12 is giving me off colors which are not in the same sync as pin 11. Both seem to be giving artifacting and fringing on text.When the screen flashes and goes to the matrix of dots for the RAM test it seems to lose color. I am wondering if the color I perceive on pin 11 is not color and the signal is trying to sync proper B/W.I'm very lost.

Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 45 min ago
Joined: Mar 31 2020 - 19:55
Posts: 537
The composite out works with

 The composite out works with colur composite displays. The /// also had digital RGB out for the AppleColour (AppleColor) 100 monitor. You can adapt that to similar digital RGB moitors such as the C1084. The /// software was typically designed only to output colour as RGB, but in ][ or ][+ mode, it output colour composite AFAIR from day one. 

 

At that time, Apple did not offer a colour composite monitor. This would soon follow the Monitor /// (monochrome) and AC100 (colour) monitors, but was designed for the //e. It is unsurprising that the docs do not refer to colour composite out. 

 

As I recall, you can modify the //gs monitor to accept signals from the /// and the //e RGB cards. I may have a schematic for that, somewhere.  

 

Here: The Apple /// signal should be identical to the Apple II TTL output. They both used the same monitor. 

 

https://www.applefritter.com/files/2020/10/05/Using%20Apple%20II%20AppleColor%20RGB%20Card%20with%20an%20Apple%20Analog%20Monitor.pdf

 

Note: You will need to adapt this for your ///, and be very careful, following schematics to make the correct adjustments. If you can locate an AppleColour 100 monitor, that is your best solution, but any old EGA/CGA display, or a C1084 can provide satisffactory results. 

 

JFWIW, colour RGB only gives you an edge for colour 80 column text and a very slight image clarity change. For any Apple II software running on a ///, such as games, this is a waste of time. If you have some software designed for the /// that supports digital RGB that you want to run, then fine, by all means, do whateer you want, but otherwise, colour composite suffices. 

 

If I did not already own AppleColour 100 displays then I would not go out of my way to find one for my //e. I have already found a limiting factor with the SuperSprite card, in that software written for it would never work with the RGB output. It does however provide a super-sharp image for MouseDesk, ProDOS, BASIC, and other programming tools with nice video options. 

Online
Last seen: 14 min 30 sec ago
Joined: Dec 21 2017 - 14:19
Posts: 83
So if the Composite video

So if the Composite video output on the Apple /// is color why do so may sources claim its monochrome output only?

Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 24 min ago
Joined: Nov 7 2019 - 13:49
Posts: 80
PAL vs NTSC?
Verault wrote:

So if the Composite video output on the Apple /// is color why do so may sources claim its monochrome output only?

 

Maybe a PAL vs NTSC thing? My Apple /// is PAL - and all its composite out does is monochrome:

Online
Last seen: 14 min 30 sec ago
Joined: Dec 21 2017 - 14:19
Posts: 83
Thanks Macfly. Thats very

Thanks Macfly. Thats very helpful. Just need someone with an NTSC Apple /// to chime in.

Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 35 min ago
Joined: Sep 4 2009 - 21:04
Posts: 101
The Apple ///  composite

The Apple ///  composite video is color on all versions. There may be some confusion because the Monitor /// is monochrome.

Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 24 min ago
Joined: Nov 7 2019 - 13:49
Posts: 80
B&W vs color

The standard composite connector on the Apple III mainboard says "B/W video" (black & white) - so, that's clearly monochrome:

 

There is also a separate composite signal on the "COLOR VIDEO" DA15 connector (J5, pin 12) which is supposed to provide a color composite signal. That's an Apple-specific connector, so you can't immediately connect standard display devices. I went ahead an made my own adapter. Still no joy. My modern day displays still show a monochrome picture only. And it's worse than the picture from the B&W signal. Maybe my machine is broken, maybe the color composite signal did not work for PAL machines - or maybe the color signal is just incompatible with modern day devices (only worked with the Apple color monitors?).

Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 45 min ago
Joined: Mar 31 2020 - 19:55
Posts: 537
MacFly wrote:Verault wrote:So
MacFly wrote:
Verault wrote:

So if the Composite video output on the Apple /// is color why do so may sources claim its monochrome output only?

 

Maybe a PAL vs NTSC thing? My Apple /// is PAL - and all its composite out does is monochrome:

[[{"fid":"31640","view_mode":"default","fields":{"format":"default","alignment":"","field_file_image_alt_t

 

PAL (pseudo-PAL) output was indeed monochrome.

Online
Last seen: 14 min 30 sec ago
Joined: Dec 21 2017 - 14:19
Posts: 83
MacFly wrote:The standard
MacFly wrote:

The standard composite connector on the Apple III mainboard says "B/W video" (black & white) - so, that's clearly monochrome:

[[{"fid":"31642","view_mode":"default","fields":{"format":"default","alignment":"","field_file_image_alt_text[und][0][value]":false,"field_file_image_title_text[und][0][value]":false},"link_text":null,"type":"media","field_deltas":{"1":{"format":"default","alig

 

 

Macfly I tried doing the same thing on my III plus and had the same results. I got video out via the RGB port but it looked like yours did. As if a layer was missing. It looked better via the composite out.

I was wondering if you had to combine pin 12 and 11 (11 is the B/W signal) into one output, but honestly I as nervous to even try that.

My signal is NTSC and yours is Pal and we are seeing similar behaviour.

 

 

 

 

Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 35 min ago
Joined: Sep 4 2009 - 21:04
Posts: 101
If you run Apple II emulation

If you run Apple II emulation mode you will be able to see NTSC color on the NTSC color pin for sure. Best I know PAL color was never supported, a PAL color board would require substantial changes.  Some of the Apple /// modes for hi res B/W, etc. will probably give strange results on the Color pins.  If you use the Apple /// color display modes they should work. The Apple /// has added circuitry to improve the lo res display mode.  If you run the old Color Bars program in emulation and on an Apple II using a composite monitor you can see the difference.  I'm pretty sure the A///+ is the same as the A/// in all these respects. I don't see any differences  in the schematics.

Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 35 min ago
Joined: Sep 4 2009 - 21:04
Posts: 101
Even some of the A/// color

Even some of the A/// color modes may have problems,  The NTSC Color output was primarily for emulation so the old Apple II display modes are the only ones you can be sure of.

Online
Last seen: 14 min 30 sec ago
Joined: Dec 21 2017 - 14:19
Posts: 83
See this seems strange. I

See this seems strange. I have read the Apple /// has TRUE color, not NTSC artifacting. So Apple II emulation mode SHOULD NOT affect the composite signal.

Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 35 min ago
Joined: Sep 4 2009 - 21:04
Posts: 101
The Apple /// was designed to

The Apple /// was designed to work only with a Black and White  monitor or with an RGB monitor.  The NTSC Composite Color output only makes proper color in Apple II emulation mode.  None of the standard Apple /// color display modes have a video mapping that is compatible with the Apple II color generation system.  I'm having trouble remembering all this stuff, it was a long time ago and my memory is not so good any more.  The Apple II emulation mode should output proper color to the RGB monitor.

Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 45 min ago
Joined: Mar 31 2020 - 19:55
Posts: 537
wsander wrote:If you run
wsander wrote:

If you run Apple II emulation mode you will be able to see NTSC color on the NTSC color pin for sure. Best I know PAL color was never supported, a PAL color board would require substantial changes.  Some of the Apple /// modes for hi res B/W, etc. will probably give strange results on the Color pins.  If you use the Apple /// color display modes they should work.&n

 

In the event that this is useful:

 

https://apple3.org/Documents/Technotes/TA30822.html

 

 

https://apple3.org/Documents/Technotes/TA48103.html

 

 

I seem to recall that access to Apple II mode capabilities while in /// mode was specifically limited by design, as just one of a long list of bad decisions for the architecture.

 

For the most part, I used ours in conjunction with a ProFile and a Titan IIe to run business and programming software back in the day. 

 

One further note: There are a number of TTL RGB to composite converter designs floating around, and pre-assembled boards that are inexpensive. Their primay market is for testing arcade boards, or, at least, that was one of the applications for which I have used them. Signal degredation will vary. 

Log in or register to post comments