Apple ][ europlus not booting properly

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Apple ][ europlus not booting properly

Hi,

 

At power up, sometimes, my europlus shows random stuff on the screen, or vertical bars (with low res graphics). This doesn't stay for long, and re-trying get the machine boot a bit.

 

In 95% of the cases, I get a black screen, with the "APPLE ][" on top, and a "/" at the first screen, in position 4 (ie: 3 spaces, then the "/").

 

In a couple of occasions, I got a "+" instead of a "/". I once got a ".". For reference, the ascii codes are 2F, 2B and 2E. It is ALWAYS in first line, column 4.

 

Lately, I got a couple "APPLE ][" message, immediately replaced by a screen full of "?"

 

When I press RESET, I generally get the basic prompt, and I can type (keyboards works fine), but pressing RETURN whill hang.

 

Sometimes, pressing RESET will drop me in the monitor, sometimes with a assembly listing. In those cases, when I press RESET, the listing continues. Sometimes the listing is half a line, sometimes several pages. Listing is often garbled in a very particular way (some complete lines are draw at the wrong location). It always starts a 0000.

 

 

Machine is an Apple ][ europlus.

 

Motherboard: 820-001-07 (c) Aple 1979. There is a hand written sticker on the board that says "8043". All ICs are in sockets.

 

RAM: 48K originally, 1 row was Apple branded, not the others. I swapped the RAM around to make sure it isn't a RAM problem. I removed all the RAM but the first row, to have 16K.

Removed all the cards (diskII + super serial).

 

I removed, cleaned with IPA and contact cleaner, and reseated all the ICs in row C and higher. ROM F0 seems quite different from the others, with very dirty pins, and I feel one is flimsy as hell. I'd rather not remove and plug it again if I can avoid. 

Nothing I did had any sort of change to the issue.

 

I bought a MiniPro with which I will use when delivered to check the various 74xx circuits. My understanding it that I will not be able to test the ROMs or the RAM with it.

 

Does any of this rings a bell? The errors are not *always* exactly the same, but *very* close. I feel it could be a bad ROM (may be wrong, but if RAM, I would expect the error to be more deadly is systematic, or more random).

 

Thanks in advance!

 

--fred

 

 

 

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First question is always...

First question is always... Does it boot correctly if the computer has been off for at least 60 seconds before turning back on?

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Unsure what you mean by

Unsure what you mean by "correctly". I turned it on after being off for 30 minutes, and got the "     /                  APPLE ][" display and freeze I described.

 

(Note that, in a few cases, I got the random screen on cold boot, or screen filled with '?', and I had to restart a few times before it displayed the "APPLE ]["so it doesn't *always* boot)

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There is a common issue with

There is a common issue with RAM from that period holding (some of ) its contents for more than 30 seconds after bring powered off. This can cause a warmstart into an incorrectly initialized state which looks similar to the issue you are having. But if it does this after being off for 30 minutes then that is not the problem. Most likely it is a bad ROM, either the chip itself or one of its connections. Try to get another set of ROMs for testing (INTEGER or APPLESOFT). Or at least the APPLESOFT F0 ROM which you suspect may be bad. That could definitely cause this.

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Thx for your help, that

Thx for your help, that sounds the logical next step.

 

I just bought one of these: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Apple-II-plus-and-europlus-ROM-replacement-board-replaces-D0-D8-E0-E8-F0-F8/283900202214 , should be shipped sometime next week, will report how it goes.

 

Looking around in the forum, I also saw the ROM X, which sounded awesome and to which you contributed. I sent a mail and will definitely get one of those when ready!

 

Have a nice day,

 

--fred

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Fixed. It was the ROMs,

Fixed.

 

It was the ROMs, specifically the F0 one. The replacement board fixed it (althoug it has both Applesoft and Integer basic -- via a jumper -- but the Integer basic doesn't seem to work -- crashes in the monitor). This is on a europlus.

 

Thanks for the help, really appreciated!

 

Now I have to fix the Disk ][...

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fstark wrote:Fixed. It was
fstark wrote:

Fixed.

 

It was the ROMs, specifically the F0 one. The replacement board fixed it (althoug it has both Applesoft and Integer basic -- via a jumper -- but the Integer basic doesn't seem to work -- crashes in the monitor). This is on a europlus.

 

Thanks for the help, really appreciated!

 

Now I have to fix the Disk ][...

 

If you want to trade the Integer ROMs send a PM to  me.

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This is not a europlus

This is not a europlus maschine, this seems to be e "normal" plus maschine.

 

The Europlus states "Apple ÖÄ" after bootup, not "Apple ][".

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pcbastler wrote:This is not a
pcbastler wrote:

This is not a europlus maschine, this seems to be e "normal" plus maschine.

 

The Europlus states "Apple ÖÄ" after bootup, not "Apple ][".

Strange that Integer crashes. Perhaps the ROM used to create that boad is corrupt? I do not recall a critical change to the Europlus that would break Integer ROMs. Perhaps a bus conflict of some sort. What cards do you have installed?

 

Please photograph the mainboard for validation, but that p/n could be an NTSC Rev 7 board: It's incomplete/incorrect in any case.  The Europlus is p/n 820-0014. IDK if the -001 was a typo, or if it is -0001.

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The -001 was indeed a typo.

The -001 was indeed a typo. It is -0001.

 

I assume it is an europlus machine because that is what the case says. I found this computer abandoned in the streets in Paris 25 years ago, and was in my basement since.

 

The pictures in my first post where it displays "Apple ][" were with "original" roms.

 

The integer rom crash is with no cards installed.

 

I added closeups of the motherboard, case and video circuitry here : https://imgur.com/a/apu5p1Y

 

I also added the display I get when I boot the "Integer ROM" both on a cold start, or just a quick restart. Not that I haven't used a real Apple ][ since 1986, so maybe I am missing something obvious.

 

Thanks for the help!

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> The integer rom crash is

> The integer rom crash is with no cards installed

 

Note that CTRL-B + RETURN gives me a working INTEGER BASIC prompt. But it boots to the monitor.

 

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fstark wrote:> The integer
fstark wrote:

> The integer rom crash is with no cards installed

 

Note that CTRL-B + RETURN gives me a working INTEGER BASIC prompt. But it boots to the monitor.

 

That is NORMAL for the non-autostart F8 monitor ROM usually used with Integer BASIC.

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oh interestnig on the rom card.

I wonder if that card would also work with a 28 pin rtc chip. I did a stuipd thing and ordered a 28 pin instead of a 24 pin. I stuck it in my Ramfactor card and it works. But takes up to much room. Well a slot. So in a round about way. I think I could do that. Though seems like a waste since all of my roms are happy. Though I wonder if it has any upgrades on it.

 

Thanks,

 

Josh

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You didn't mention that you

You didn't mention that you were using an EPROM board like that; or if you did, I failed to notice. I thought that you had Integer on a ROM board in Slot 0.

 

When you use the bank select to choose AppleSoft, does that have the same issues? 

 

Please photograph the serial label on the bottom of the unit. I have a funny feeling that it will be A2S0048P, and not A2S1048P. That'd be the Apple II EuroMod, which woud indeed have a -0001 mainboard with a circuit mod. 

 

I also cannot see the p/ns on the ROMs in the foam clearly. WOuld be helpful to have a zomm in of those, and remember, you can upload all of the images direct to the forum. This is best, as if the external host that you use goes away, then so do all images in a thread. Images hosted localy on the forum will persist for the lifespan of the forum.

 

In what country are you locted?

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Anything you ask, sir! > You

Anything you ask, sir!

 

> You didn't mention that you were using an EPROM board like that; or if you did, I failed to notice. I thought that you had Integer on a ROM board in Slot 0.

 

No problem, I mentionned the ROM card it in the fifth post: "I just bought one of these: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Apple-II-plus-and-europlus-ROM-replacement-board-replaces-D0-D8-E0-E8-F0-F8/283900202214 , should be shipped sometime next week, will report how it goes.", as a way to test if my issue was ROM (it was).

 

> When you use the bank select to choose AppleSoft, does that have the same issues? 

 

No, it boots completely normally to the APPLE ][ and AppleSoft Basic prompt. If I add the Disk II controller and a DOS 3.3 master disk, it boots to DOS. When I switch to integer ROM, it boots to the '?' screen, and if I re-warm boot it, the screen contains some garbage.

 

> Please photograph the serial label on the bottom of the unit. I have a funny feeling that it will be A2S0048P, and not A2S1048P. That'd be the Apple II EuroMod, which woud indeed have a -0001 mainboard with a circuit mod. 

 

The bottom of the unit says: A2S2 56747:

 

 

 

> I also cannot see the p/ns on the ROMs in the foam clearly. WOuld be helpful to have a zomm in of those, and remember, you can upload all of the images direct to the forum. This is best, as if the external host that you use goes away, then so do all images in a thread. Images hosted localy on the forum will persist for the lifespan of the forum.

 

I understand that, however, sometimes forum owner would rather not have huge attachment to host. I'm fine with doing what is best for the community, so I'll put my pictures inline.

 

Here are the "original" ROMs. The F0 ROM was the dead one. It is so corroded that a pin felt off when I extraced it from the socket.

 

> In what country are you locted?

 

I am in France. I found this computer abandoned in the streets in Paris 25 years ago, and it was in my basement since. I learnt assembly on a Apple ][ 36 years ago, so I really wanted to revive it :-)

 

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I suspect that the Integer

I suspect that the Integer set on that ROM board is incorrect for your system, or corrupt. Do you need ROM based Integer BASIC for anything? The Europlus shipped with AppleSoft BASIC, and loaded Inteer from DOS. Only the EuroMod shipped with Integer, and the various versions of Integer on PAL machines are all incompatible. 

 

If you need Integer, you can load it from DOS 3.3+ diskettes. From what I se, you have an early EuroMod mainboard and a bastardised configuration. My advice is to try to find a PAL/SECAM card for slot 7, and use this as an AppleASoft machine (as any + machine would be), and load Integer from DOS. The ROMX is another option for you in the future, but I do not smell any hardware issues here. 

 

If you have soe specific or immediate need of ROM Integer BASIC, feel free to detail that need. 

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Thank. I did found a PAL card

Thank. I did found a PAL card a few days ago, so things are progressing.

 

I don't *need* ROM Integer Basic for anything, all this is just for nostalgia purposes. But when I tried it and it gave me that weird screen, I wondered if there was anything bad with the machine.

 

I will get a ROMX as soon as I can (not sure if that'll be quick, as I am in Europe), but, as said, this is just for fun.

 

I think I need to also find a language card, and this proves to be harder than I though, as they seem to be in the US with shippings of 3x the price of the card...

 

Anyway, thanks for all the help

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Language Cards

I had a heck of a time finding a second Language card, then I got two more within a week of each other.

Part of me wonders if we're approaching the point where getting some of these older cards mapped out in, say, KiCAD, would be a worthwhile project, so they can be cheaply manufactured by someone like Seeed or PCBWay?

 

I have a language card that looks pretty easy to map out. Might give it a go. If I open source it, people can even improve my version. (Obvious change would be to substitute 4164s for 4116s, for instance, plus options to move all the 74 logic to SMT)

 

Chesh

 

 

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CheshireNoir wrote:I had a
CheshireNoir wrote:

I had a heck of a time finding a second Language card, then I got two more within a week of each other.

Part of me wonders if we're approaching the point where getting some of these older cards mapped out in, say, KiCAD, would be a worthwhile project, so they can be cheaply manufactured by someone like Seeed or PCBWay?

 

I have a language card that looks pretty easy to ma

A language card, or a ROM card? The language card is common as dirt. There were half a dozen clones. Any 16K card is eual if your main ROM set is AppleSoft with Autostart.

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I just started to look for a

I just started to look for a language card, but they seem to be common as dirt *in the US* only. Having them delivered to France is about 40 additional euros, which sucks.

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fstark wrote:I just started
fstark wrote:

I just started to look for a language card, but they seem to be common as dirt *in the US* only. Having them delivered to France is about 40 additional euros, which sucks.

You have an Autostart ROM. You can use the Microsoft card, the Prometheus card, the Saturn 64K card, ot any nuber of clones. ][+ 16K cards were common as dirt, period, andwhere you find a ][+. It is uncommon for a system to lack one. The only thing special about Apple's card is that it also included the Autostart ROM for use with PASCAL and FORTRAN on diskette. 

 

When Applesoft ROM sets were released,  this extra ROM became superfluous and clones of he Language Card did not include one. 

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See I disagree...

Had this problem when I was trying to get a Disk II controller card.

I can get a board made up here in OZ, delivered for $10AUD ($5USD). I can then fill it with $30 AUD of parts and have a working clone of most of the more desirable cards, if the designs were available. (Either as Gerbers or, better yet, KiCAD so remixes can be done)

I can't get a card delivered to Oz for less than that, let alone the cost of the card.

 

Last time I raised this, everyone was happy to jump in and tell me how "wrong" I was, and send me to links to auctions that only proved my point. ("But shipping to me is only $2USD! How much could it be to Australia? Oh. $30 USD? Oh." *insert crickets noises*)

I was super lucky last time and another collector was able to supply me a card shipped across Australia for "swapsies" for an adapter, and, for that I was super appreciative.

 

(I'm also on the "wrong" side of Oz, which adds to the distance. almost the distance from LA to NY to get to Sydney from here)

 

I'll start with the Language card into KiCAD, (Putting my money where my mouth is) and we'll see how we go. I'd do the Disk II card next, but I'll need to work out if I can use something like a PIC to "emulate" the PROM.

 

Chesh

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CheshireNoir wrote:Had this
CheshireNoir wrote:

Had this problem when I was trying to get a Disk II controller card.

I can get a board made up here in OZ, delivered for $10AUD ($5USD). I can then fill it with $30 AUD of parts and have a working clone of most of the more desirable cards, if the designs were available. (Either as Gerbers or, better yet, KiCAD so remixes can be done)

I can't get a card delivered t

 

Chesh, have you contacted anyone at Apple-Q?

 

http://www.apple-q.org.au/

 

That is one of the few groups active in AU that is old enough, that they may still have members with II systems and parts collecting dust. 

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Australian Apple Users

Hi Timelord,

I'm already on the Australian Apple II Users group.

 

As for the KiCADding, we probably want to do this anyway. I've already made good progress on the Language card. Once I have it all in as a Schematic, I'll look at doing a board, just for myself.

 

The good thing about having these as "open" KiCAD designs, will be the oportunities for remixes down the track. (I'm likely to do a remix board of the Language card to use 4164 chips as they're cheaper, more reliable and run cooler, even if we end up with 48k of unused RAM)

 

And, eh, it's kind of fun in a "zen" sort of way.

 

Chesh

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CheshireNoir wrote:Hi
CheshireNoir wrote:

Hi Timelord,

I'm already on the Australian Apple II Users group.

 

As for the KiCADding, we probably want to do this anyway. I've already made good progress on the Language card. Once I have it all in as a Schematic, I'll look at doing a board, just for myself.

 

The good thing about having these as "open" KiCAD designs, will be the oportunities for remix

http://www.novasar.com/files/LANGCARD_SCHEMATIC.pdf

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Timelord wrote:fstark wrote:I
Timelord wrote:
fstark wrote:

I just started to look for a language card, but they seem to be common as dirt *in the US* only. Having them delivered to France is about 40 additional euros, which sucks.

You have an Autostart ROM. You can use the Microsoft card, the Prometheus card, the Saturn 64K card, ot any nuber of clones. ][+ 16K cards were common as dirt, period, andwhere you find a ][+. It is uncommon for a system to lack one

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, my ][+ lacks a language card. And I am absolutely not looking for an Apple one, any card would be fine for me.

 

However, as said by @CheshireNoir, the situation here is quite different from the US.

On leboncoin (same as craiglist, but in France): no card showed up in the last 6 months.

On ebay: no cards in europe currently (saw one a week or so ago, was a complete rip-off, even more expensive than the US ones)

On ebay, US: currently he cheapest card is "American Microware" : $24.95 + $25.50 shipping (there is another "American Microware" at $19.00 , but with $47.74 shipping! )

 

So, I'll wait until something with a more plausible price shows up :-)

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> On ebay: no cards in europe

> On ebay: no cards in europe currently (saw one a week or so ago, was a complete rip-off, even more expensive than the US ones)

 

Some years ago there were a lot of Language Cards, Disk II controllers, M$-Z80-compatible on Ebay in West Germany but nobody wanted to buy these cards. Probably this hardware is recycled to new Iphones or will be back on Ebay in the future again but a bit more expensive.

 

What about replacing the simple Language card with a Saturn RAM card, probably a new one?

 

Regards

Ralf

 

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Increasingly off topic
Timelord wrote:
http://www.novasar.com/files/LANGCARD_SCHEMATIC.pdf
 

Cheers! That's the one I have been working off. I've found or created all components on the schematic.

Next steps are around labelling everything to match the PDF, then start wiring up everything carefully.

 

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CheshireNoir wrote:Timelord
CheshireNoir wrote:
Timelord wrote:
http://www.novasar.com/files/LANGCARD_SCHEMATIC.pdf
 

Cheers! That's the one I have been working off. I've found or created all components on the schematic.

Next steps are around labelling everything to match the PD

I look  forward to KiCAD mdes. I woud churn these out of I had a model for the Apple II cedge connector. 

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I've not tested it yet but...

Here's the one I found.

https://xjmaas.wordpress.com/my-apple-collection/apple-edge-connector-template-for-kicad/

I also found a lot of the chips I needed in a library for C64 projects, of all places.

(Makes sense since they're vaguely similar vintage I guess)

 

(My KiCADding is on hold while I rebuild my desktop PC)

 

Hope it helps!

 

Chesh

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CheshireNoir wrote:Here's the
CheshireNoir wrote:

Here's the one I found.

https://xjmaas.wordpress.com/my-apple-collection/apple-edge-connector-template-for-kicad/

I also found a lot of the chips I needed in a library for C64 projects, of all places.

(Makes sense since they're vaguely similar vintage I guess)

 

(My KiCADding is on hold while I rebuild my desktop PC)

 

Hope it helps!

&nb

http://www.xjmaas.nl/sites/default/files/Apple2_bus.zip

 

I'ts a 404. 

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Odd.

Maybe it's deep link blocking.

Go here: http://www.xjmaas.nl/my-apple-collection/apple-edge-connector-template-for-kicad/

then follow the link. Just tried it to make sure.

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CheshireNoir wrote:Maybe it's
CheshireNoir wrote:

Maybe it's deep link blocking.

Go here: http://www.xjmaas.nl/my-apple-collection/apple-edge-connector-template-for-kicad/

then follow the link. Just tried it to make sure.

Than you, that one works. I needed that in order to design cards. 

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