I'm looking for advice from other "enthusiasts" here. I'm in the midst of an RFI era II plus restoration that I've been slowly acquiring parts for for some time. I have a case with speaker and all hardware, a matching motherboard that I acquired separately, and a Unified Retro Keyboard that I ordered directly from Dave from osiweb.org a few years ago and built myself.
The advice I'm looking for has two parts.
First, should I stick with original parts and upgrades like an original working power supply (I'm comfortable recapping), original Apple 16k Langauge Card, etc. or buy a new power supply from Reactive Micro and consider modern uogrades like RamX.
Second, a very nice IIe with monitor and dual disk drive along with original manuals, disks, boxes, and paperwork just became available locally for $500. Should I pause my restoration and pick up this IIe?
I realize these are personal and subjective questions, but any advice from the community would be greatly appreciated.
FWIW, I like tinkering quite a bit, so I'm probably leaning toward continuing my restoration now—though I'll finish it either way. I'm more stumped on original parts and upgrades versus modern creature comforts.
As a creator of some of the modern upgrades, I may be a bit biased. But my take is that it depends upon what you want to do with the final result. If you want a collectors item, then you'd need to start with something like an early rev machine. You could then make the case for only adding age appropriate expansion boards and accessories.
If your end goal is to have a working machine to actually use for programming, gaming, or other endeavors, then a more capable machine like a IIe or above might make more sense. Less compatibility issues and unstable hardware to deal with. And then you can add whatever modern storage, acceleration, or other gadgets to make the most of your Apple II experience.
Either way, welcome to the group and have fun with whatever you decide to do. This is a great community and there's plenty of things you can do with these amazing machines.
Thanks Jeff. As I mentioned, RamX is among the modern upgrades I'm considering—as is RomX—so it's great to get advice from you.
I had both a II Plus and a IIe growing up. My fondest memories from that era were playing Ultima II and Wizardry on the II Plus. These days, however, I'm much more interested in Apple II hardware architecture and programming as well as having a machine I can use on a daily basis.
I'm going to check out the IIe tomorrow.
I'd use your original power supply case and put a new power supply board in it, either the RM one or a Mean Well PT-65B. You can find the Mean Well conversion information here on AppleFritter. Either option gives you a power supply that looks original on the outside but has the advantage of higher output and all new components. I've done both with great results. The RM board is super easy to install, but the Mean Well isn't much harder and I can do it for about 1/2 the price.
On post #1, 'jp1971' asked:
" ... a very nice IIe with monitor and dual disk drive along with original manuals, disks, boxes, and paperwork just became available locally for $500. Should I pause my restoration and pick up this IIe ..."
Uncle Bernie comments:
I used to pick up Apple IIe for free, complete systems with two DISK II drives and a nice set of slot cards inside, including the Z80 card for CP/M. This was ~20 years ago, before the Apple IIe became a "collectible", whatever that is supposed to mean. Even today I would not pay $500 for any Apple IIe system, even when complete, and in pristine condition, despite I occasionally enjoy a bottle of Dom Perignon - bought with my own money, of course, not shoplifted. So it's not a matter of funds ... it's more about what I think these old computers are worth. The Apple IIe was built by the millions but reliable production numbers for the IIe are hard to find. I believe (like many others) that maybe 3-4 million Apple IIe were produced - as a good, reasonable guesstimate. So where is the rarity which could justify a "collector's price" ? In my long and prosperous life I owned many "collectibles" from rare wristwatches to Italian made luxury sportscars and I always had the (sour) aftertaste that the"collectible" attribute is just a foul trick the previous owners put on a well used but rare item to make it more pricey. In the end, you get a worn (aka: not new) thing which had numerous pre-owners and all the risks and issues this fact brings along. In every field of human endavour there are "collectible" vendors who make a living from buying and selling these items. How does that increase the real use value for the next owner ?
So, my advice is to take all "collectibles" with a grain of salt. Most are actually worthless (such as the infamous "Beanie Babies") and the same applies to almost all inherited postage stamp collections - if you don't believe me these are worthless, try to sell them. And don't get me going on jewelry - all you can get is maybe 50%-60% of the gold/silver melt value, and all the diamonds add zero, the professional buyers actually break them out and toss them in a bucket, and you can ask them to keep these diamonds, and most will agree. I also have a huge chess computer collection, and could never get my money back, despite I bought them for dimes on the dollar.
I should have bought them for pennies on the dollar ;-)
My conclusion based on a lifelong experience, and reason and logic is to avoid buying any "collectibles" of any kind at "collectible" prices unless you are sure you get the "use value" you sought with the acquisition. Such as taking your Lambo to a racetrack (renting one would be cheaper, though, for the same experience, and be aware these 1960s "Classics" do not have dry sump lubrication, lest you might kill the engine in long high speed curves).
For the Apple II, I'd think it's more satisfactory to restore an older model with no custom LSI chips and wait for an opportunity to get a good IIe for a song later.
Just my 10 cents of advice ;-)
- Uncle Bernie
I like Reactive Micro. But, if I can save give or take half with the Mean Well, I'll likely go that route. Thanks for the tip!
From what I've read in multiple places the number of //e units produced by Apple was somewhere between 6-8 million between 1983 and 1993, almost 11 years. Back from the mid 1980s to early 1990s virtually every K-12 school and most colleges and universities in the US had between several to hundreds. Sales to schools, and also to families with kids in those schools was what kept the Apple II family selling for so long. There were some sales to hobbiests, but that was never a huge market and by the time the //e had been out for a few years a lot of that market had moved on to the Mac and other brands and most business sales had moved to PC clones.
However, even things produced in massive volumes can eventually become collectible. In the case of things like automobiles, cars like the Ford Model T and Model A for example were produced in the multiple millions and were at one time essentially nearly free and yet eventually became collectible and now are less collectible than they once were as most of the people with nostalgia for them are now dead. This pattern is common, and sometimes exaggerated with often purpose made collectibles like Beanie Babies. Things like cars and computers are slightly different in that they at least at one time had some intrinsic purpose and usefullness, but nobody buys a vintage automobile to actually use it as a daily driver and nobody buys an Apple //e to be their main computing platform. Well, maybe not nobody, but you could probably count either on your fingers worldwide.
As for Italian made vintage sports cars vs something like the Apple //e. The //e was always kind of like maybe an Oldsmobile or Pontiac. Not a cheap crappy low end model Commodore 64 or something like that, but definitely not luxury or sporty. Utilitarian, sturdy, reliable. None of those things are things you'd say about anything from Ferarri or Lambo back in the day. And frankly even pedestrian Italian made cars like the Fiats were usually notorious for being high maintenance. To the point the old joke was that FIAT was an acronym for "Fix It Again Tony". The exotics are much worse because they cost a small fortune to maintain because parts are hard to get and expensive, the cars are hard to work on and few people experienced in it and they often require a lot of specialized tools that most shops don't have. By contrast the Apple //e despite it having a few "unobtainium" chips, the MMU and IOU, is pretty reliable and easy to work on. The ][ and ][+ of course are made with mostly all off the shelf parts to are generally easier although they do seem to fail more frequently due to much larger chip counts. To be fair there are a few things that commonly fail in these old machines, most notoriously the RIFA caps in the power supply which are pretty much a WHEN they will fail not IF kind of thing. That's an easy fix and if you know about it ahead of time can usually be prevented before it takes anything else out. The rest of those power supplies are also prone to occasional failures, electrolytic cap leakage and the occasional failed opto-coupler or diodes. But those parts are all easily found and there are even easier solutions like the Reactive Micro power supplies and the Mean Well conversions you are already intimately familiar with.
As for pricing on //e units, eBay is a pretty good guide for what realistic pricing is. //e units seem to reliably actually sell between $150-$350. So I'd say a typical system package with a couple floppy drives and a monitor is an OK deal at $500-ish if you say, but much more than that is probably not realistic unless some board that is highly desirable is included. Common ones like Super Serial cards, etc., wouldn't do it, unless the system was loaded with multiple cards, then maybe slightly more. A system complete with the original manuals and maybe the boxes is a big plus, but again, more than $500-ish probably would be a no from me.
Prices on eBay for certain items seem strangely high if you are familiar with what they sell for at Ham swap meets, yard sales, etc. But the supply in those places is less consistent, and requires much more legwork, so in some cases it evens out.
Fortune favors the diligent, and truly dedicated collectors can still find ways of getting most things for free or cheaply.
Thanks everyone for weighing in—I genuinely appreciate the perspective and experience being shared here.
I eneded up bringing the IIe I mentioned at the top of this thread home yesterday.
A couple of clarifications from my end, since context probably matters.
First, I live in Brooklyn, where it’s rare to get anything for free and most things—especially niche hobby items—tend to carry a premium (even when venturing out to Long Island). The local market reality here is different than what some folks may have experienced in other regions. So part of my decision was simply grounded in what’s realistically available where I am (as opposed to rolling the dice on ebay—which I also often do).
Second, being able to buy this system directly from the original owner and test it live mattered to me quite a bit. I got to see it powered on, verify the drives, check the monitor, and talk through its history. That kind of provenance and transparency has real value for me, not as a “collector premium,” but as confidence in what I’m bringing home.
And lastly, while this might technically fall into the “collectible” category, that’s not how I approach these machines. I collect 6502 technology like I collect tabletop games and analog synthesizers: to use regularly, not just to possess. I fully intend to program on this IIe, experiment with hardware, and put it into rotation alongside my II+ restoration and other 6502 projects. It’s a tool first, artifact second.
For what it’s worth, I’ve since learned this is a Rev B unenhanced board (820-0064-B / 607-0164-N), produced in the 50th week of 1984. This lines up with the production dates on all of the ICs as well as the original purchase date of February 9, 1985—a month before the IIe enhanced became available. That era lines up closely with when I first experienced the IIe as a kid, so there’s some personal history folded in there too.
I completely understand the broader point about being cautious around “collectible” pricing. But in this case, for the completeness (original boxes for the DuoDisk and Monitor II, manuals, Beagle Bros software, joystick, 80-column card, etc.), the local context, and the ability to inspect it in person—I’m feeling good about the decision.
And the II+ restoration is definitely still happening.
Thanks again, everyone!
In post #7, 'softwarejanitor' wrote:
" In the case of things like automobiles, cars like the Ford Model T and Model A for example were produced in the multiple millions and were at one time essentially nearly free and yet eventually became collectible and now are less collectible than they once were as most of the people with nostalgia for them are now dead. This pattern is common ..."
Uncle Bernie comments:
This is a very valuable insight which can be extended to anything "collectible" and I fully agree with 'softwarejanitor' - even with his notions about Italian supersportscars (this is off topic for a computer forum but he is right - you can find lot of cheap FIAT parts on any 'luxury' Ferrari, Lamborghini or Maserati of the 1960s - I don't want to bother you with my stories about this, but actually, it's good, because these FIAT parts are cheap, much less than the mediocre Italian "Borgo" pistons my mechanic refused to install when rebuilding my engines, arrogant Mahle of Germany had a wait time of 3 years, so we settled for USA made pistons from a company specializing in making modern pistons for NASCAR racing engines, and using them (with Titanium rods) I could rev my old and lame 1968 Maserati Ghibli to the 8000 RPM which Fangio had at his disposal already in the Tipo 54/450S which won the "12 hours of Sebring" in 1957 (works car, drivers: Fangio/Behra), same engine block and crankshaft, but we also had to use modern racing tech valve springs to avoid destructive resonance - I wonder how the factory pulled that off in Y1957 - and if you want to buy a few old "Borgo" pistons for a 4.7l Ghibli as a luxury ashtray for your illegal Cuban cigars, send me a PM, I still have them, the pistons, not the cigars, as I don't smoke :-).
The point here is that any "collectible" has a "lifetime" in which it finds "collectors". The typical psychological trigger is when a kid sees a "thing" and wants it badly but could not afford it, being a kid with a maybe $10-$20 pocket money allowance per month. When that kid grows up and becomes successful and has the excess "play money" funds available, the "kid" - now a wealthy adult - seeks to fulfill all of his childhood dreams, and this creates the "collector's marketplace" for that kind of "thing". And with the money being there, high prices will be paid - at a certain point of wealth, "money", being just another fraud being perpetrated by governments, becomes what I call "funny jelly" - a meaningless blob (for Americans: "green 'Slime' (tm)'") you can pour on a table. This "fiat" money - which intrinsically is worthless - can't buy you health, a younger body, happyness or true love but it can sure buy collectibles, so collectibles will be bought and so a market for them exists.
When this generation seeking these "collectibles" dies off, their "collectibles" might not be worth anything, just because there are no buyers anymore, all that generation having died off. Zero demand = zero value. As 'softwarejanitor' has so aptly observed, this happened with the Ford Model T and Model A.
For us computer collectors, there is a lesson to be learned in all of that, because the psychological mechanisms are exactly the same. If you buy an Apple II (or any other "collectible" thing), do it only because it fulfills your dreams when you were a kid, and don't expect that "collectible" thing to be of any value / interest for your posterity.
This line of thoughts and reasoning inevitably brings us to the topic of the Apple-1 and its clones.
And here - IMHO - is another plain, blunt fact to consider. The Apple-1 needs rare ICs which cannot be reproduced today (and in the future) without investing millions of US$ to reproduce them using modern process technologies. Get me right - I do not mean any substitute PCBs or FPGAs. I mean ICs, vintage or not, in the regular IC package that can be plugged into the Apple-1 motherboard. We will soon reach a point where these ICs cannot be sourced anymore. So this means that it will become infeasable to build Apple-1 clones.
And the consequence of this is scarcity. Even "wealthy" guys with lots of "play money" will not be able to buy a complete Apple-1 IC kit anymore. And this means that the number of Apple-1 clones in the world will not increase anymore. The same way how the number of original Lamborghini Miura and Countach is limited. Because they could not be built / reproduced anymore.
In the light of the above discussion and arguments about how the perceived "value" of collectibles comes about, this means that we are in a small window of time where the creation of Apple-1 clones based on the originally specified IC set is still viable at reasonably low costs and where a demand for these clones still exists. Fast forward 10 years and the demand still may be there but it will be impossible to procure the ICs.
Fast forward 50 years (pretend to be in Y2076) and nobody will care about Apple-1 or their clones.
Draw your own conclusions for the above discussions. I only provided some facts. And I hope it was not a waste of my time to do that.
- Uncle Bernie