Need some Guidance with ROM Card

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Need some Guidance with ROM Card

Hi Folks:

I could use some guidance with respect to the Apple Integer ROM Card.

When I have the card in my Apple II+ I get a strange array of colored checkers.

The machine has a Saturn 128 card (genuine) in slot 0, a Grappler + card in slot 1, and a Videx UltraTerm in slot 4.

The machine works fine without the Integer ROM card installed.  With it installed... no go.  I have tried pulling the other cards in random ways when the ROM card is installed but same effect.

Picked up the card from a user here on the sight and I am confident it is in working condition.  My suspicion is I am doing something wrong.

I am not very well versed in using the ROM card. 

Any suggestions?

Thanks

mark

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What slot did you put it in?

Seems to be missing the F8 ROM. That would do it.

 

Also the D0 and D8 sockets have Applesoft ROMs in there. Should probably remove.

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From the picture, it doesn't

From the picture, it doesn't seem like you have a complete set, as you're missing the original Machine Monitor.  If you either don't have or can't find one, then you can substitute the Applesoft Auto Start ROM instead.  But without at least one of them the computer will not boot.

 

For Integer, the ROMs should be arranged as follows:

F8 -- 341-0004-00 (Machine Monitor) or 341-0020-F8 (Auto Start)

F0 -- 341-0003-00

E8 -- 341-0002-00

E0 -- 341-0001-00

D8 -- Empty

D0 -- 314-0016-00 (Programer's Aid) or Empty

 

For AppleSoft:

F8 -- 341-0020-F8  (Auto Start)

F0 -- 341-0015-00

E8 -- 341-0014-00

E0 -- 341-0013-00

D8 -- 341-0012-00

D0 -- 341-0011-00

 

These are arranged starting A6 to A1 on the ROM card, and F1 to F6 on the motherboard.

 

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If you can't find original

If you can't find original ROMs it is possible to burn 2716 EPROMs and install them on these cards with an adapter socket.  There is also a spot on the upper right of the card where two solder pads can be filled to allow 2716, but if you do that you have to put all 2716s in the card, you can't mix ROMs and EPROMs that way.

 

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Thanks

Thanks for all the input.  I knew you guys would come through.

Softwarejanitor: It looks like those holes are filled in.  They have 2716 written above. Would I need to remove the solder to use the standard EPROMS that are installed? Correction. On close examination there appears to be a gap between existing solder pads. Perhaps you can zoom in on the image?

DistantStar001: Thanks for the details.  I will look into finding EPROMs for both Integer and AppleSoft so I can use it as either.

 

If anyone has a 314-0004 (Machine Monitor), 314-0016-00, and 314-0020-F8 (have one just want an extra), please PM me.

 

I filled in the card with EPROMS as outlined above for Integer Basic (D0 & D8 empty. F8 socket has F8 Autostart ROM) but I still have just a colored checkered screen. Card in slot 3.

Sometimes the lights on the Saturn light.  Sometimes all, sometimes just 2.  Example display images. Occurs with switch up or down.

 

Thanks,

mark

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The 2716 solder pads on your

The 2716 solder pads on your card do not appear to be bridged so ROMs (as opposed to EPROMs) should work.  You just need the right ones.  Or you need to bridge the solder pads and put in all 2716s or you need to build adapter sockets for the chip(s) you are missing and run 2716s in just those sockets.  Those are basically your options.

 

 

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Oh...  I also forgot to ask

Oh...  I also forgot to ask what happens if you flip the switch on the back of the card to the opposite position?  If you still get failure then one of the 74LS chips may also be bad.

 

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The Programmer's Aid (D0) ROM

The Programmer's Aid (D0) ROM is not really required, so you could probably remove the chips in D0 and D8, as they are for Applesoft as has been mentioned.  All you probably really need is an F8 ROM, and has also been mentioned, either an Autostart or original F8 will work even with INTBASIC.  Since it appears your other three chips are correct, you could probably just make one 2716 adapter and burn one with the non-Autostart ROM image if that's what you want.  Or you could go with something like the Freeze's F8.  Or the Autostart F8s are actually fairly common.

 

 

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Returning to this thrad after quite some time

All:

I am finaly getting back to my vintage collection/restoration hobby.

To start things off, I am returning to this Rom 600 card project.

Goal: Use the rom card to switch between Integer and Applesoft on an Apple II+.

System: Apple II+.  Working fine. Has roms, 0011, 0012, 0013, 0014, 0015, and 0020 installed for Applesoft boot.

I have some questions I am hoping folks may be able to address.  I am still learning the rope with modern rom chip replacements so I am grateful for everyone's patience in my learning.

1) Is my plan of using the rom card to switch between Integer and Applesoft basic correct?  Is it logical?

2) The photo below shows the entire card. It presently has 0001, 0002, 0003 and 0020 installed.  I would like to replace the 0020 in F8 with a Monitor rom (0004) rom and add the Programmer's Aid (0016) to socket D0.

3) The roms in the card are all Apple stamped.  Does this mean then are 9316 chips?  How can you tell what kind of chip it is 2716?

4) An earlier comment from #softwarejanitor said the card can be 2716 compatible if the 2716 pads are joined.  I have included a close up of the pads.  I do not believe they are connected.  Is that correct?

5) If I want to use 2716 chips for the Monitor (0004) and Programmer's Aid (0016) then all chips must be 2716s. In other words I can not mix and match 9316 and 2716 chips.  Is that correct?

6) If the best solution is to make the card 2716 compatible, does anyone have a photo of what the pads should look like joined or can provide guidance on which parts of the pads are joined?

7) What about the DIY adapter wiring people have done to use 2716 with original roms?  Would that work in this case?  Example. The example also  references Mike W's work.

I know Reactive Micro used to sell integer roms on their site (don't see them now) and I found this vendor on eBay.   Wonder if these chips with an adapter woudl work?

What would you do given these circumstances?

Apologies if some of this may seem basic to ya'll, but for some reason this just seems to boggle me.  Guess I'm just getting old.

 

 

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Whatever you decide to do,

Whatever you decide to do, please take a look at the ROMX. It will give you all the options you want including INTEGER (with various D0/D8 options), Applesoft, plus much more. And will probably cost you less than using adpater sockets, etc.

 

theRomExchange.com

 

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Thanks

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for the direction.  This looks like a great solution.  For preservation purposes, I'd like to try and do this with original-ish equipment.  This is more of a restoration type effort than deriving a working solution to get things running.  Hope that makes sense.

Mark

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Sure. One question: you said

Sure. One question: you said the Saturn card is in slot 0; where are you placing the ROM card? Normally that would go in slot 0 as well. In fact, if it is not in slot 0 DOS will not be able to select the correct BASIC when launching programs (although with the Saturn card it can load the missing BASIC into there).

 

Bottom line, there's little reason to have both cards in the same machine.

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The Saturn can come out

Good point on the Saturn.  That can come out.

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Stargeezer wrote:Good point
Stargeezer wrote:

Good point on the Saturn.  That can come out.

Just be aware that many programs won't run without a Language Card (or Saturn). But my guess is you're not actually looking to build a working machine as much as a collectors item.

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ROM cards will work in other

ROM cards will work in other slots besides zero.  However, unless the switch is made remote like mine has been (on a cable), it will only physically fit in slots where the switch lines up with the cuts in the back of a ][+ case.

 

As has been noted, a fair percentage of software requires 64k, which the Saturn card in Slot 0 would be needed for.

 

Another thing noted from the original posts...  UltraTerm or other 80 column cards should not go in slot 4.  Technically they will work there, but almost all software that supports them expects them to be in slot 3.  Most people would normally put something like a mouse card or a Z80 card in slot 4, although it and slot 5 are two that normally are kinda "whatever else you got" go.  Slots 1 & 2 normally being for printers and communications cards (like a modem).  Most all of that is just convention though, on a ][+ really only slot 0 is that special.  Oh and 7 if you need something like a PAL card, RGB card or some other video cards like that.

 

 

 

 

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softwarejanitor wrote:ROM
softwarejanitor wrote:

ROM cards will work in other slots besides zero. 

 That is technically correct. However as previously noted if it is not in slot 0, DOS will not be able to select the correct BASIC when launching programs. So unless there is a LC and a startup program to load it with the missing BASIC, you would have an issue.

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That is true.  If it is in

That is true.  If it is in another slot to switch you have to flip the switch and hit RESET.  That was usually what I was doing.  I'd boot up with the motherboard ROM then flip the switch, hit reset, get the monitor prompt, move some memory around, either save to tape or reboot and save to disk...  Later I filled the empty socket with a 6116 SRAM in an adapter socket (nice to save 2K that won't get wiped during boot).  I also at some point burned a copy of "The Freeze's" F8 onto an EPROM.  That was nice to have.

 

Of course later things like the Wildcard came out which made a lot of those methods less useful.

 

 

 

 

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Just an observation...

I admit I haven't read all replies to this original posting, but the ROM card image in the original post is virtually identical to my Apple ROM CARD I purchased back in 1978 and was sold with the FP ROMs installed.  My F8 socket is also empty.

 

The card was originally made to give the Apple II Rev 0's the ability to either boot from the default Apple Basic ROM chips installed on the motherboard or to boot from this Floating Point ROM on this card which had to be in SLOT 0.  The switch position (up or down) on the rear of the card selected the motherboard ROM or the ROM CARD to boot up the Apple II.

 

I am including a photo of my Apple ROM Card (which still works fine) for comparison:

 

Now whether there were other variations of this ROM CARD with other boot options I must admit ignorance.

 

 

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 LaserMaster wrote: My F8

 

LaserMaster wrote:

 My F8 socket is also empty.

Yes, while many ROM cards had the F8 socket populated with the corresponding Monitor ROM, the card can work without that by leaving the F8 solder bridge (between the LS09 and LS138) open. Then whatever F8 ROM is on the motherboard will always be active.

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jeffmazur wrote: LaserMaster
jeffmazur wrote:

 

LaserMaster wrote:

 My F8 socket is also empty.

Yes, while many ROM cards had the F8 socket populated with the corresponding Monitor ROM, the card can work without that by leaving the F8 solder bridge (between the LS09 and LS138) open. Then whatever F8 ROM is on the motherboard will always be active.

It was pretty common back in the day to use the Autostart F8 even with INTBASIC ROMs.  I think the Autostart Monitor actually came out before Applesoft.  In any case almost everything worked with it, and it was a great convenience when using the Disk ][.  Otherwise you had to type in the boot sequence by hand every time...  Although "C600G" isn't a lot...

 

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