reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general thread

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reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general thread

In another thread specific related to the wildcard the idea was given to start a general thread...

Hello all together,
instead of starting discussion about which task has priority....
probably it might be more interesting to instead treat this thread as a kind of "wish-list"
or also as "planning task list" - checking out which cards should come on the list,
find out which cards are completely availiable with hard- and software and documentation -
to find out if reengineering is possible .....

and then create/join groups to solve the task ( similar to the moutain expansion box )

and then open for each card on which reengineering will be done an own thread ....

i guess that when the task / i.e. thread for a card is started - in that thread it can be found out,
if there is enough interest to start a "run" or if just the documentation of the reengineering is done -

if there is not enough interest for a "run" and then just publish the gerberfiles to permit those,
who are interested to order with that data a single ( but much more expensive ) prototype board order at a PCB-manufacturer...

if there is not enough interest then there won´t be enough people joining for the task of reengineering and
that card will be anyhow "dead" and kicked off the tasklist because it won´t turn to an own thread....

and if there are enough persons for a "run " - then it´s a part of the task within that single thread to collect orders, get the ( cheaper because more cards being ordered ) "run" from a PCB-manufacturer organized and then solve the orders....

if i would for example do the task on the IIe diagnosis card i´d expect rather only people with several IIe´s or local user-groups with IIe owners to be interested for getting a card, because that would permit to do better and faster service on the units....

just a proposal....
sincerely speedyG

in that thread also the following was posted by mutant pie:

As a general idea to throw out there, in my opinion two of the more interesting and hard to get cards for the Apple II were the Apple issued Video Overlay card, and the Computer Eyes video signal (still image) digitizing card. I have the second one (software and manual), and know that at least one other 'Fritter member would like to have one.

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

Couple of custom chips on the Video Overlay Card. There's a MEGA II. And, I believe, an FPGA that configures itself at each power-up.

I probably have a scrap Video Overlay board that could be torn down and x-rayed (multi-layer I think). Then I've got a pristine NIB unit which could not be made available for re-engineering.

I also have a Computer Eyes board, NIB, and one to play with. IIRC, this is all standard stuff, nothing custom..??

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

ooops .... bouncing key...

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

Hello to all AF-members,

if the desired card contains LSI-chips ( LSI=Large scale Integration ) like Mega II or similar -
well then a reverse engineering is nearly impossible.....
in former days such "custom chips" have been made on demand - and after they have been manufactured - the ordering
company got the entire stuff ( shematics and production data ) back to protect the ordering company from "copy cats"...

if such chips contained read-protect-fuses they normally have been blown in production to make it impossible to read-out
logic tables.... this is quite similar to the PAL´s used in a lot cards ( like PAL18V6 or similar ) .... only in very few cases such read-protection-fuses have been forgotten to blow...... such chips only can be read if the fuse is intact and read-out is still permitted....

sincerely speedyG

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

Hello to all AF members,

at the end of April after VCFe has passed by i´m starting to reverse engineer the Apple //e Diagnostic Rom Card.
This card was used by dealers and service technicians to make fast diagnostic on Apple //e systems.
It contained a diagnostic programm in Eproms and was able to uncover nearly every problem known by the Apple IIe.
It has never been released to the public and therefor only very few of this cards have been made.....
but it has for sure quite a large value for larger user communities and local user groups or collectors with
larger amount of IIe computers in their collection for assisting their local staff by maintaining the members computers.....

i´ll therefor perform a reverse engineering task on this card and publish the information here in an own thread....

here at first step a view on the top and solderside of the card:
the topside:

and the bottomside:

sincerely speedyG

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

This is an old thread but....
So, how have you made out with the Diag Board?
I think a Thread like this would be fun. I am in the middle of reverse engineering the SCRG Quickloader myself. I am trying to get it on a smaller board with 5 instead of 8 eproms. That size board is less expensive to produce. I feel I have the schematic correct but routing is the problem on the smaller board. I hope you have had success on your Diag Board. I have one so if you need to look at a different board let me know. Wish me luck on the Quickloader.
wm

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

Hi wment,

I have a collection of QuikLoader boards, but I have an even smaller collection of
pre-programmed applications (EProms) for them. I can burn EProms without issue but taking the time to
make up applications is time consuming. I suppose when I retire, I can do better with that.

I'm more than happy to share the EProm sets that I have. Would you do the same?
Also, why do you want to reduce the count of Roms down from 8 to 5? Is it only for reducing the board size?
You can likely reduce the board size if you use surface mount ICs for the logic and make the EProms 2 rows of 4.
Let me know if you need help on that.

One of my ambitions is to reverse engineer the WildCard Pro, the version with the microprocessor on the board.
Can't seem to find anyone willing to sell or rent one of those. Sad

Let me know on the QuikLoader EProms... Thankx!

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Re: reverse engineering apple II interface cards - general ...

Hi
Yes the reduction from 8 to 5 was so I could get it on a 100mmx100mm board in Eagle. I got the physical parts to fit but not the routing, not enough space but not giving up. Even using SMT I was not able to get everything on the 100mm boards. The 100mm boards are less expensive to produce also. Since my last post I have completed (I think at this point) the routing for the 8 chip board and almost ready for a PCB quote. I will continue exploring with the SMTs. Using SMTs will require many more VIAs to get signals between layers. My eprom collection is very basic but will be happy to share.

How have you made out with the Diag Cards?

wm

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For all that own an SCRG Quikloader

I'd like to start a collection of ROMs (EPROMs actually) for the SCRG Quikloader.

I have a small collection of  EProm sets for this board, but I'd like to expand upon it with the community's help.

Besides a DOS & ProDOS bootup Rom, I also have AppleWorks in French, but I'm looking for the English version of AppleWorks.

If anyone in AppleFritter land has the English version of AppleWorks for the QuikLoader, please post a response here. 

I will share any and all code I have for this board.  My eventual plan is to expand what's out there.  Thanks!

 

 

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Something that would be super

Something that would be super useful for people making cards for the Apple II, whether new designs or re-creations of vintage ones, would be sample schematics, CAD files, etc.  Some simple reference designs of common design patterns would be a great jumping off point for a lot of beginners to start from.

 

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wment wrote:Hi Yes the

wment wrote:
Hi Yes the reduction from 8 to 5 was so I could get it on a 100mmx100mm board in Eagle. I got the physical parts to fit but not the routing, not enough space but not giving up. Even using SMT I was not able to get everything on the 100mm boards. The 100mm boards are less expensive to produce also. Since my last post I have completed (I think at this point) the routing for the 8 chip board and almost ready for a PCB quote. I will continue exploring with the SMTs. Using SMTs will require many more VIAs to get signals between layers. My eprom collection is very basic but will be happy to share. How have you made out with the Diag Cards? wm

 

I don't have EagleCAD but if you can print the schematic as a pdf, I can reenter it into KiCAD and get the size down for you.

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I found a partial schematic

I found a partial schematic and did a quick analysis of it, its a relatively trivial task to redo it with more modern components.  There is probably a days work for me to complete the schematic and a few hours to write the GAL code and test the protoype board when it arrives.  The design will be functionally identical to the original card when fitted with eight 27512 eproms.  The component count would be a 27C040, GAL22V10, 74LS174, 1N4148 diode, 10K resistor, 3x .1uf caps and a 47uF 16v cap.  The board will measure 56mm x 66mm

If there is any interest I could complete the design in a couple of weeks when I have some free time again.

 

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There is nothing wrong with

There is nothing wrong with KiCAD, but Eagle is a free download, albeit in a limited edition.  It might be worth the effort if for no other reason than it would probably be convenient to be able to open up other people's Eagle projects and look at their schematics and boards.

 

I've tried both Eagle and KiCAD but have struggled to get a workable board to the point of being able to generate gerbers to send to a board fabber.  That's been an issue keeping me from getting some of my projects beyond the prototype built point to point soldered on a proto card.

 

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Where can I download eagle?

Where can I download eagle?

For KiCAD I ended up using youtube to work out how to do the things that eluded me. My first effort in KiCAD was an arduino shield for a Mega2560, it plugs onto either the expansion port of a TRS80 model 1 or into a z80 cpu socket and lets to access and test memory and IO ports to diagnose faults.

I plan to do one for the Apple/6502 before too much longer. The hardware is a little more complicated for the Apple because of the way it interleaves CPU and video access to memory. I'm thinking the solution is to put the arduino in the drivers seat with a 6502 as a slave clocked by the motherboard, That will handle the interleave syncronisation and any timing issues. The Arduino will load simple routines into a shared static RAM for the 6502 execute and store the results before passing control back to the Arduino. The result will be a full diagnostic capability even on boards that cant boot.

The hardware part is simple the bulk of the effort will be in writing the code for the two processors.

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Here is the download link for

Here is the download link for Eagle:

https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/free-download

 

The diagnostic tool sounds like a nifty project.  I imagine you may have to do different firmware for the ][+ and //e due to differences in the hardware.  Also may or may not work in clones depending on how close they are.  Also whether the machine is a 6502 or 65C02 for Enhanced //e may matter too.

 

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None of that will matter.

None of that will matter.
The goal of a boards like that is to determine what is preventing it booting. So basic RAM testing, a simply routine to set text more and write so test patterns to the display memory (same for all variants)
For ROM a simple checksum that excludes the area at FB09 (name on screen) and you only have a few variations of boot ROM plus Applesoft and Integer.

Anything fancier like graphics modes, 80 column mode or cassette IO dont stop a machine from booting so they can be left to diagnostic programs.

For instance my dead boot ROM sets some soft switches to put the display on page one text mode and that works for 2, 2+, clones, 2e and enhanced 2e.

I could reinvent the wheel, build the Taj Mahal making i be everything to everyone and deliver it in 10 years time. The approach I prefer is build the basic toolkit a scaffold that can handle the important tests with generic routines in the Arduino code to control the 6502 like read/write a byte or a block of memory, checksum a block of memory, test a block of memory and fill a block of memory. People can then add their own personalised tests like setting different graphic modes and drawing lines simply by writing some trivial Arduino code that calls the IO routines provided. That is something I can deliver in a matter of weeks.

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Fair enough.  Keeping it

Fair enough.  Keeping it simple is not a bad thing.  Nothing wrong with getting something basic out quickly and then enhancing it later or leaving some of that to others to do as they see fit.

 

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SCRG QuikLoader remake

David_M wrote:

If there is any interest I could complete the design in a couple of weeks when I have some free time again

 

This looks great - I’d certainly buy a couple of your QuikLoader remake cards!

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Macnoyd has begun creating a

Macnoyd has begun creating a full schematic of the original card, So once I have that it will take a day to reduce that to a new minimal design. Then a week for prototypes cards to arrive .
A day or two for writing the GAL rules and testing and production boards a week after that. So we are looking 4 weeks or so.

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It is pretty cool that so

It is pretty cool that so many new (or reissue, reboot, etc) cards are coming out for a computer line that came out 40 years ago and has been out of production for 25 years.

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VERY!! Thank you very much to

VERY!! Thank you very much to all that can do it!

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QuikLoader Schematic complete (for the most)

Haven't built a board from it yet, but for the curious, here'tiz ...  (9MB file)

https://db.tt/3kT4CE5YY9

 

Spent many hours drawing it up "the old fashioned way". ;)

 

I'd sure like doing this for a WildCard Elite.  (The Wildcard with the 6502 processor on it)

Been looking for years to no avail.  Maybe someday ...  :(

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macnoyd wrote:Haven't built a

macnoyd wrote:

Haven't built a board from it yet, but for the curious, here'tiz ...  (9MB file)

https://db.tt/lBML9KLc5u

 

Spent many hours drawing it up "the old fashioned way". ;)

 

I'd sure like doing this for a WildCard Elite.  (The Wildcard with the 6502 processor on it)

Been looking for years to no avail.  Maybe someday ...  :(

 

I don't think it will be too long of a wait for boards based on the schematic.  I have some repair work for clients to do first.  Two Exidy Sorcerers with expansion interfaces to restore, two Amiga's to recap and two commodore 1084s colour monitors to repair.

 

But once they are done and I've sold enough of the new MultiROM boards to recover some of the costs I'll  get some prototype quickloader cards made. Maybe 3 weeks for prototypes and if all goes well another week for a production run.

 

 

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QuikLoader PCB

I'm in a position of posting a detailed board trace of a cloned (like the original) QuikLoader PCB if anyone's interested.  2-layer.

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Quickloader

I too would be interested in a QuikLoader board.  I can populate the board if you can supply pcbs.

Regards

Rory McDonald

OldSchoolAppleII

 

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One product that might be

One product that might be cool to rev-engineer is the Eventide Spectrum Analyzer.

I own one.  It is a fairly easy pcb for the interface but has a DIP connector to a more complex analog filter board.

The spectrum analyzer is VERY rare- I have seen one  of them on eBay and I bought it, then re-sold it a while back, leaving me 1 unit that I got from my old college teacher/tech for free (he was just about to throw it out when I happened to contact him about it!)

I was able to copy the ROMs from the interface with  no issue and I have basic running software for it as well.

The board provides a decent audio spectrum analyzer but the software is in lo-res graphics, which actually works OK for the application.

I am thinking of writing a version of the software to run on the SuperSprite board just to see if I can do it.

 

Regards

Rory McDonald

OldSchoolAppleII

 

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Surely somebody has a

Surely somebody has a WildCard Elite we can use as a template to help end Macnoyds endlessly long pain and suffering.

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Yes, WildCard Elite please

I need more to do!. (well, not really, but I'd like to do this one if I can borrow one from someone)

 

Subject change:  QuikLoader

I have REVISED the S.C.R.G. QuikLoader Schematic:

  A:  Incorrectly stated that ALL address lines are wired to the EPROM Address lines.  A13 thru A15  are not wired from the A][ bus.

  B:  Re-routed drawn lines on the schematic for better placement

  C:  Added Revision 1 as my official release document, though no board has been built from it yet.  Logic lines have been verified accurate.

  D.  Removed existing download link to old version.  (Old being 2 days!)

 

New download link:

https://db.tt/3kT4CE5YY9

Enjoy!

 

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Progress is being made.  The

Progress is being made.  The GAL rules need to be written as well as a program to write eprom image files created by the original utilities into the flash.
I'll order some prototypoe boards in the next couple of weeks.

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For what it's worth, this

For what it's worth, this card would be easy to plug in backwards, I recommend adding an extension to the PCB on the keyboard side, so it will not fit into the chassis backwards

 

regards,

Mike Willegal

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It is marked as to which end

It is marked as to which end goes towards the keyboard.  Making the board larger might increase the manufacturing cost.

 

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Mike WIllegal wrote:For what

Mike WIllegal wrote:

For what it's worth, this card would be easy to plug in backwards, I recommend adding an extension to the PCB on the keyboard side, so it will not fit into the chassis backwards

 

I did the overhang thing on the first protoype of the saturn reboot design and it looked really ugly.

 

Its labelled on the card which way it goes and the side the chips are on should also be a big clue and if in spite ofd that they still plug it in backwards then I can sell them a new one lol

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QuikLoader Schematic, last revision

I have REVISED the S.C.R.G. QuikLoader Schematic for the last time before I hand-build a prototype to verify accuracy.

Changes to the schematic include:

1.  Cleaned up Address / Data lines to be more easily read.

2.  Added jumper configurations that are options to the original board. (for 2764 thru 27C512)

3.  Improved notes regarding Address buss connections.

4.  Updated download links to Rev. 2  Deleted download links to Rev. 1

 

Download link:  https://db.tt/3kT4CE5YY9

 

No further changes to this schematic will occur until the prototype is built and verified. (or if someone identifies a gross error)

Enjoy!

 

 

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Hi Bob,

Hi Bob,

 

Well, I'd et this out as quickly as you can.  This one on eBay went for a small fortune and 28 bids.   I think there is a demand for them. :-) 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/QuikLoader-card-for-Apple-IIe-computers-ROM-card-/202485781296?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720

 

 

Thanks,

Jay 

 

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L c

New cards are not too far away, I can get production boards made anytime. I'm just waiting on the software to allow the onboard flash to be updated in circuit to remove the need for an external programmer.

The hardware design has been working and finalised for a couple of weeks.

The prototype cards are green but the production run will be done in white.  They are my smallest yet only 56mm x 66mm

The photo shows the original QL card design at the top with the QL prototype bottom middle and flanked by the current rev 1.1 versions of the MultiROM and Saturn128

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Please forgive my ignorance,

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the advantage of the Saturn memory card vs the 128k 80 column card?  I'm not turning up a whole lot of info in my web searches.  Is this something specific to the ][+?

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The 128K Saturn card is memory add-on

for the Apple ][, ][+, ][e, while the 128K 80 column card is designed exclusively for the ][e to add 80 column capability.  Part of the memory on that particular card is dedicated to produce the 80 column memory space needed for the ][e.  The ][+ needed 80 column text generated basically from scratch.

You can't use a 128K 80 column memory card in a ][+.  The edge connector on that card is not the 50-pin standard.

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Lee Adamson wrote:Please

Lee Adamson wrote:

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the advantage of the Saturn memory card vs the 128k 80 column card?  I'm not turning up a whole lot of info in my web searches.  Is this something specific to the ][+?

 

Saturn 128k card adds 128k to a ][+ or //e, the Ext 80 col card adds only 64k to a //e only.  A //e with both cards has 256k.

 

 

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Correction of what ??? 80 col in II+

macnoyd wrote:

for the Apple ][, ][+, ][e, while the 128K 80 column card is designed exclusively for the ][e to add 80 column capability.  Part of the memory on that particular card is dedicated to produce the 80 column memory space needed for the ][e.  The ][+ needed 80 column text generated basically from scratch.

You can't use a 128K 80 column memory card in a ][+.  The edge connector on that card is not the 50-pin standard.



hello macnoyd,
please excuse, but i can#t find any posting here related to the saturn 128 card ......
neither about the 80 col card for the IIe ......
and I never claimed use of the saturn card in the IIe except as memory expansion in the
memory expansion slot !!! Could you please spot out what posting in what thread you spot in this thread ???
what mistake are you claiming ???
every 80col card in a II+ has own local memory RAM "on card" ( as 4x 2114 RAM ! = 2 kb RAM ) ...
 


correction is OK - if there is something to correct-

but "correction" of a  never performed mistake is quite ridiculous..
.in such case i would demand to spot what you want to correct and which posting...
 

sincerely
SpeedyG

 

 

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Hi Speedy,

Hi Speedy,

 

Truth is, this is what happens when you type a response late at night when reading someone elses post. 

I was reading one of your posts while responding to Lee Adamson's question regarding the Saturn 128K vs. the 128K add-on card and inadvertently typed your name.

In other words, I got my wires crossed!  Sorry man, I've corrected the title of my response.

 

... I just wanted to see if you were paying attention. =:-O

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Attention...and other topics

Hi maynoyd,


if possible i keep attention "on track"  of this board....
I just keep a bit less "online" due to health issues.....

similar to gssmcten i am fighting serious problems and spent in last months more time in hospitals

than i would favour....  kardiology detected 5 serious aneurisms in dangerous places and i am also

facing serious issues while breathing....

after all not to forget that i had 2 serious heartstrokes several years ago i nearly got killed last year by a truck

resulting to artificial hip-joint at the right side after that accident....

that's why i let the "new members" here carry out support advisory unless it's necessary due to sometimes serious mistakes.... only in such cases i get active again....

up till then i prefer to read the postings and just watch "the flow go on"....

I guess recovery will still demand several months ......

sincerely

SpeedyG

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I hope your recovery goes

I hope your recovery goes well and quickly speedyG.

 

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Yes, I also hope your

Yes, I also hope your recovery goes well Speedy-G.  Lung and circulation issues are quite serious, fast-acting  and cannot be ignored.

Thanks for paying attention to our posts. I appreciate the feedback.

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thanks for the good wishes

thanks for the good wishes

sincerely
SpeedyG

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WOW. I am sorry to hear that.

WOW. I am sorry to hear that. I wish you the best on your health and well being!

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