MMI 6301 PROM burning...

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MMI 6301 PROM burning...

Hi,

we are trying to build a device to program the MMI 6301 PROM, because all the ROM programmers around are really too expensive! (the DATA I/O 29/something is way too expensive for us!!!)

Does someone have any information about this or maybe have tried something similar?

We found this as a starting point:

http:// www.retrotechnology.com/dri/prom_shook.html

circuitry for the required weird voltage levels to program the MMI 6301 seem not so difficult to create...

we already built a 2708 eprom reader (and almost programmer, but that's untested at the moment, it works only on our schematics Smile ) using a PIC.

Any info is appreciated! Smile

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

Hello again...
well instead it might be far more easy to order the ready to use set of proms from Mike Willegal....
he offers the programmed set of the apple-1 proms and most people order them together with the MIMEO
due to the fact that there is nearly no other source for that proms.....
and if the 2708 makes trouble ... well then probably you might wait till i distribute the ROMcard i have
developed.... it also will be able to program eproms....
see here for further informations at the thread:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/interest-3-expansion-cards-mimeoapple1
and here:
http://www.harrowalsh.de/Elektronik/APPLEBOX/appleboxApple1expansions.htm
sincerely speedyG

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

A Data I/O 29A or 29B with a Unipak or Unipak 2 adaptor really is the way to go.

Believe me, it's far easier and cheaper in the long run than trying to make a programmer for older PROMs/EPROMs.

The 29A with Unipak will handle just about anything a vintage computer hobbyist will need, including 2708/2704 EPROMs and 6301 PROMs. About the only chips you might encounter that they don't do are 1702/1702A EPROMs

You may have to be patient but you should be able to get one for around $150 or so. Don't be put off by the outrageous prices that some vendors put on them on eBay. They never sell for those kinds of bucks. Look for realistically priced ones or those which allow a best offer and put in an offer of $150. That's how I got mine.

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

Thank you Smile Well, the idea of building one is also for teaching purpose, just to "understand" better how those PROM work, and also to involve some students here Smile

But I agree with you: the only problem is that we're in Italy and also shipping is someway expensive. We will search. A Data I/O is a real dream for us! Smile

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

Its surprising how large the required currents are to blow them tungsten fuses !

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

Did someone have iformations about the required procedure / voltages / current for programming? We only have part of a datasheet :/

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

probably following up this links lead to solution:
http://www.batronix.com/shop/electronic/eprom-programming.html
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/How_EPROMS_Work#Programming_algorithms
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc0578.pdf
http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?t=2066
http://books.google.de/books?id=uQ89NnwJe6QC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=eprom+programming+algorithms&source=bl&ots=9X_sqCo_aG&sig=BLrFME76-mq_WXjV-IsPPJXXRlc&hl=de&sa=X&ei=sD3IUceLIc66hAfol4G4CQ&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=eprom%20programming%20algorithms&f=false
http://www.rennes.supelec.fr/ren/fi/elec/mcu/68hc11/pcbug11/eprom.htm
sincerely speedyG

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

But those are for EPROM's, totally different stuff...

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

asbesto wrote:
Did someone have iformations about the required procedure / voltages / current for programming? We only have part of a datasheet :/

Hello asbesto,
then it would be usefull to explain: do you have algorythms for burning Proms/Eproms at all?
or what are you precisely looking for....

or do you just want the complete datasheet for the MMI 6301 ?
of course there are differences between eproms and proms...
programming time at proms is shorter
programming voltages are often similar
required procedures are often similar
current is at proms often less...
and some of the links contain followups targeting to proms...
seems you want the "ready to eat dish" only...
sorry - but that will become very difficult, due to the fact that the part is obsolete....
in such case: why not contacting mike willegal by pm ?
i issued posting above that he offers programmed proms ...
- so probably it might not be wrong to guess that he has documentation....
- or is this guess that obvious ???
sincerely speedyG

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

asbesto wrote:
Hi,

we are trying to build a device to program the MMI 6301 PROM, because all the ROM programmers around are really too expensive! (the DATA I/O 29/something is way too expensive for us!!!)

Does someone have any information about this or maybe have tried something similar?

We found this as a starting point:

http:// www.retrotechnology.com/dri/prom_shook.html

circuitry for the required weird voltage levels to program the MMI 6301 seem not so difficult to create...

we already built a 2708 eprom reader (and almost programmer, but that's untested at the moment, it works only on our schematics Smile ) using a PIC.

Any info is appreciated! :)


I have a manual with schematics for the MMI Model 535 Programmer; if this is still an active thread, I can scan and post it. Dave

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

orgwood wrote:

I have a manual with schematics for the MMI Model 535 Programmer; if this is still an active thread, I can scan and post it. Dave

Hello orgwood,

first of all welcome to the community.

just to answer your question:

the moment you answer to a thread - it immediatly gets revived and also gets displayed at the left side
in the upper "active forum topics" noted ....

and of course sometimes threads are delayed by missing information - but get very fast alive again, when
information is added. So of course asbesto and a bunch of other members will be glad and gratefull to view that
manual of the programmer - even more if it contains some kind of shematic !
So please don´t hesitate to scan that manual and add a link to the place where it has been uploaded.
If you have any problem by the size of the upload - also don´t hesitate to reply and we will be glad
to assist you with tips on how to compress the data to get best results for the shematic.

sincerely
speedyG

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

On this same subject, is there a listing available (as a text file) for the 2 Monolithic Memory Proms in the Apple 1 that show a listing of address in & data out ?

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

First, YES post the schematic.

I have to laugh at the OCD behavior this hobby puts us through. I too couldn't live with out MMI proms. Before I bought and burned my MMI's I bought PROMS from Mike. But after obsessing I broke down and found some MMI's. I think I bought at least three full sets of components before I was finally happy with the parts enough to solder them to the board. I'm still in the process of looking for IC's with closer date codes. Oh well...

I was this close >< to building my own programmer. I was even in the process of buying the parts. At the end of last year I built a programmer for an obscure Signetics PLD for my PDP11, just to burn one chip.

This time I decided to just bite the bullet and buy a Data I/O series 22. I actually found an Ebay seller that understood "Make an offer" and negotiated a reasonable price. For the Series 22 I still have to buy the Eprom and PLD that opened up all the algorithms.

After all that I have only used the programmer to burn 4 proms. If you want to send your PROMS to me I would gladly burn yours at no cost, you just pay shipping. PM me if you are interested.

len

p.s. I'm in the States.

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

MMI 535 PROM programmer manual and schematic- how do I upload?

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

http://www.originalwoodworks.com/aim65/MMI-535.pdf link is dead. Here's the new one http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/aim65/MMI-535.pdf

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Re: MMI 6301 PROM burning...

This is a question I asked (above) about 2 years ago and could not find ...
Does anyone have a HEX listing of the CONTENT of the 2 MMI 6301 chips in the Apple 1?
I have a Data I/O programmer that will burn these and would like to make a set.
Thank you in advance.

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There is an alternate attempt

There is an alternate attempt possible:

Recognize the 2 4-Bit proms to bee a set that replaces a 8-Bit prom with upper and lower byte.
Use an Adaptor that uses both proms at same time and rplacing an 8-Bit prom.
Then you may use a modern 8-Bit Programmer to dump/read-out both proms to 1 file for both proms
and then use the programmer to program that proms at the same time.
I've made an adapter that uses this kind of solution and permits direct acces to the corresponding enable/controllines
by dirct access.

[img]http://www.appleii-box.de/UFO/MMiProms/MMIAdapterPlatine.jpg[/img]

 

http://www.appleii-box.de/UFO/MMiProms/MMIAdapterPlatine.jpg

 

[img]http://www.appleii-box.de/UFO/MMiProms/MMIAdapterCircuitplan.jpg[/img]


http://www.appleii-box.de/UFO/MMiProms/MMIAdapterCircuitplan.jpg

 

here the export files of the adaptor from cadsoft /  eagle:

 

http://www.appleii-box.de/UFO/MMiProms/MMIAdapter.zip

 

sincerely speerdyG

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MMI 6300 gold and ceramic proms

I have quite a few of the 6300s in white and gold and gray ceramic packages. Before I list them on eBay, does anyone have an interest? This is the open collector version of the 6301 used in the Apple I. I found a small resistor package that fits underneath if you want to use them in that computer but there may be a pull-up on the data bus. I'm not sure.

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Sorry for reviving such an

Sorry for reviving such an old tread, but I have just bought a few MMI 6301-1J and would like to burn them. I have an old CP-1128 burner from BP systems which support many old chips, but the 3601 is not on its list. By googling I found a cross reference which says that these chips have the same layout and parameters:

Signetics        MMI     TI       Harris  Raytheon  AMD      National  Intel
   ---------     ---     --       ------  --------  ---      --------  -----
TS 82S129 (50ns) 6301-1  24S10    7611-5  29661     27S21    74S287    3621

I haven’t checked yet (I’m on holidays), but since I burnt N82S100 in the past, I would think that the 82S129 is also supported.

 

Comments/suggestions?

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They all "may" work in the

They all "may" work in the same end circuit, but most manufacturers had different programming algorythms.  That said, if you have extra chips to spare, you can try using different manufacturers algorythms and see if you can find a one that may work for the chips you have.  

 

regards,

Mike Willegal

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I have ordered a few more

I have ordered a few more 6301-1J to test. A simple adapter and a file with data in the upper 4 bits will be used. I will simply pull the lower 4 bits to gnd so that the CP-1128 can read and check its contents.

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I recieved two more 6301-1J.

I recieved two more 6301-1J. The CP-1128 can be used to program Signetics 82S129 which is (according to Signetics) compatible and can replace the MMI6301. I put them into the programmer and it was able to successfully read them. Problem was that the devices were all containing data(!)

It looks like the original 4pcs I also bought (from somewere else) also contained data.. so for now I have to find a different source. Obtaining date correct chips will probably be impossible unless someone finds a box in some old military surplus storage (or something like it)...

 

I post a few pictures, while the Signetics cross-reference can be found here.

 

The MMI6301-1J has to be put in such that the pin 8 and 9 are closest towards you.

Reading the 4-bit content shows different data in all the devices. 

The device was not blank, so writing was not possible.

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I finally recieved 5 "new"

I finally recieved 5 "new" old stock MMI 6301-1J that were sold as blank, but my programmer reports them as not being blank. In fact, they all seem to be filled with $F (e.g. all fuses blown):

For obvious reasons they can't be programmed as they are reported full, but I tried anyway (that step can be ignored in the software) and with no luck. I can even choose "MMI (AMD) 63S140" which is supposedly the same thing, but it doesn't program.

After some digging around, it seems that most proms like Signetics 82S129 and MMI 63S140 are shipped with all outputs low, but according to the 6301 datasheet, MMI components are shipped with NiCr fuses as a logical high (and programmed to low by blowing the fuse). It may be the reason my programmer doesn't want to program them.

 

So if anyone here can help me to program 4 pcs of MMI6301-1J proms, I would be grateful. If you live in northern Europe, even better.

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Hi again!

Hi again!

I am going to San Francisco in the middle of next week and was wondering if anyone here has a Data I/o 29B to burn the MMI6301 (and are in the San Francisco area). Send me a PM if you do (and want to try).

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Hi,

Hi,

I had a similar experience recently with some bi-polar proms where the blanks provided all read as 0x0F and I thought the same as you.

However in my case the explanation was they are 4096 x 4 bits (not 8 bits) so 1111 = $0F so they fuses weren't blown as first thought. In my case they were able to be programmed successfully.

Cheers

 

 

 

kakemoms wrote:

I finally recieved 5 "new" old stock MMI 6301-1J that were sold as blank, but my programmer reports them as not being blank. In fact, they all seem to be filled with $F (e.g. all fuses blown):

 

For obvious reasons they can't be programmed as they are reported full, but I tried anyway (that step can be ignored in the software) and with no luck. I can even choose "MMI (AMD) 63S140" which is supposedly the same thing, but it doesn't program.

After some digging around, it seems that most proms like Signetics 82S129 and MMI 63S140 are shipped with all outputs low, but according to the 6301 datasheet, MMI components are shipped with NiCr fuses as a logical high (and programmed to low by blowing the fuse). It may be the reason my programmer doesn't want to program them.

 

So if anyone here can help me to program 4 pcs of MMI6301-1J proms, I would be grateful. If you live in northern Europe, even better.

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Yes, apparently they are high

Yes, apparently they are high (=1) until the Nickel-Chromium fuse is melted away. The output then becomes low (=0).

 

Unfortunately, only the Data I/O 29 and 22-series seems to supporte these (MMI 6301 and 5301). I am pretty sure my programmer could have blown the fuses in them if it understood that the logical high was unprogrammed.  Maybe I get around to build an interface to convert the signals, but it will require some transistors with enough current capability. And I will need to invert the bits of the program.. :-P

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MMI 535 programmer

I worked MMI in the mid 1970s and sold these devices.  I have samples of several of them for sale on eBay.  I also scanned the MMI Model 535 programmer manual that includes a schematic and component list.  I already posted in on my now dark website and I believe Rich Cini has it on his page as I previously mentioned.  If anyone want to build one of these programmers, I would rescan the schematic for greater resolution and provide whatever other help I can such as selling you some samples that I feel are blanks as they can directly from the factory. 

orgwood65@gmail.com

Dave Colglazier

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MMI 535 programmer
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factory programmed PROM identifier

Wnen there is another number under the P/N, that normally identifies that the factory programmed the device to a customer supplied pattern.  I bet if you check those with that same number, the internal code will be identical.  I believe I have D/C appropriate 6300 devices that are the O/C open collector version, not the T/S version.  Some APPLE I schematic notes have the wrong P/N cross referenced.  I have located a small 4 resistor pull up pack that can be located under the device to provide the pull up function but it would load the data bus all the time so I'm not certain there is enough drive capability for it to function reliably.  Another option would be an SMT  T/S buffer  hand wired under the device .

Dave Colglazier

 

kakemoms wrote:

I recieved two more 6301-1J. The CP-1128 can be used to program Signetics 82S129 which is (according to Signetics) compatible and can replace the MMI6301. I put them into the programmer and it was able to successfully read them. Problem was that the devices were all containing data(!)

It looks like the original 4pcs I also bought (from somewere else) also contained data.. so for now I have to find a different source. Obtaining date correct chips will probably be impossible unless someone finds a box in some old military surplus storage (or something like it)...

 

I post a few pictures, while the Signetics cross-reference can be found here.

 

The MMI6301-1J has to be put in such that the pin 8 and 9 are closest towards you.

Reading the 4-bit content shows different data in all the devices. 

The device was not blank, so writing was not possible.

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5/6300 PROMs & Intel 3621/2 PROMs

These are some 6300 J PROMs that I believe have a code already programmed inside them. If you'd like to test them, I can send you a couple to find out.  You can also see the pullup resistor pack I mentioned in another post.

BTW, if you use military grade PROMs they are the 5300 J or 5301J or the 5300 D shown with the 6300 D.

Also I have several of these Intel  D3621 and D3622 PROMs that are the same capacity256x4 and double the capacity 512x4.  These are blanks but I'd like to have them tested and programmed to the APPLE I code for resale.  They are direct replacements and very early D/Cs so they would need no other mods to serve as replacements.  I also think they are listed on the APPLE I Schematic parts list.

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MMI and Intel PROMs
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Apple video trim pot?

Sorry if I've put this in the wrong forum or repeat posting.

I have several of these 100 ohm heipots that look like they are correct for the Apple I video trim pot.

 

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