PowerExpress Revisited

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Re: Was there any advantage to us

drbob wrote:

It's not, it's a standard PC floppy port

How does that work with the mac's powered eject? Was a special drive made?

I have seen the connector, it is on the beige G3 mobo, it dosn't have the pins (or controller?) connected, however. The 4400 also has the connector, but again, empty holes and definatly no controller, the 4400 is wiered in every respect.

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Beige G3 ROM

Well, I got ahold of a Beige G3 ROM rev.2, installed it, but no boot, nothing different at all, no video output, just the chime. My next bet, and probably my last, is a PM 4400 ROM card that's coming in the mail. According to the Apple Specs, both the 9600 and the 4400 used 4mb $077D ROM, but it says the 4400 used rev. $3A, while it says n/a for the 9600. It should probably arrive monday or tuesday. Burn some incense and slaughter the goat over the weekend an hope we led a vituous life.

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The copyright never expires o

The copyright never expires on Apple ROM's. If you ask them for that, they will likely ask you to return the stolen prototype.

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Stolen?

Stolen prototype? You don't think it just went out with the trash and ended up with a computer junker? There seems to be quite a few of them floating around.

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I'm pretty sure that taking s

I'm pretty sure that taking stuff from trashcans is still considered stealing.

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one mans trash is another man

one mans trash is another mans treasure.

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trash is trash

Actually, filching from trashcans is quite legal as long as one does not trespass in order to do it. A high court ruling to that effect gave birth to the large market in paper shredders, as I recall.

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horsepucky

Aren't some of us being a tad sanctomonious here? Stolen seems a rather harsh way of describing all the ways not-for-release hardware escapes from Apple. And trashpicking is not illegal in most cases.

There must be a zillion ways things escape from Apple's control. Trash, 'enterprising' and thrifty employees, forgotten engineering seed releases, etc. I have 2 EVT PBs, both were probably delivered to 3rd party hardware developers in advance of release. I'm sure those companies signed NDAs which required return of the hardware, but after Apple released the finished model, those EVT pieces became just more computer junk to be disposed of. Stolen? Hardly, just lost and forgotten.

Trash is discarded material, if something hits the rubbish bin intact it is fair game. Trashpickers break no law be fetching something from an unsecured container.

As for duplicating the bloody ROMs, lets get real. Those are Apple's copyrighted code, and duplication transgresses on Apple's legal right to control reproduction of its intellectual property until the copyright expires in 50 years or what ever it is. But in the real world Apple is certainly not going to track down and prosecute ROM pirates who dupe an ancient and rare prototype's ROMs.

dan k

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onboard vram and other postulations

I'm still waiting for the 4400 ROM. I failed to realize, so I didn't mention it earlier, but with the Beige G3 ROM installed, the chime no longer cycles like it did before, it only sounds once at startup, so I guess that's a good sign and gives me hope for the 4400 ROM.
I also notice that the AV slot next to the PCI slots is much smaller than the motherboard AV slot for the AV module on the PM 8500, 8600 models. Another PC infection?
There are eight vram chips (NEC D482444GW-70). I'm wondering how much VRAM that adds up to--probably 2 or 4mb 70ns? And that brings up another question in my mind. Does the speed of onboard VRAM affect the speed of the main memory DRAM in any way? If I've got 70ns VRAM and 60ns DRAM, is my DRAM slowed down by the VRAM?

twiddling my thumbs in the tropics

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foolish, foolish me

Well, the 4400 "ROM" card arrived, except the seller was mistaken! It's not a ROM card, it's an L2 cache card. I should have known better and done my homework. The 4400's don't have ROM cards, they've only got pads for a ROM slot right next to the cache slot. The auction photo was not sharp, so I just took his word for it. I got some more 3.3v RAM with the auction and the cache card and an odd VRAM card, so now my beautiful PowerExpress motherboard has 288mb of RAM and a Beige G3 rev. 2 ROM and an interesting startup chime and no boot and no video output. Is this the end of the road? So many of the PCI Powermacs had ROM slots, but I guess there ne'er was a ROM card made for any of them. Is that correct? I wonder if I should bother taking the time to check the Tanzania clones for a card? Is it possible to flash the Beige G3 ROM card? All I wanted was a motherboard for a computer for my daughter, but I got lured by the mangoed perfume of onboard ultra scsi. I took that chance and got off the boat to pursue that alluring elixir. And now to quote Chef from "Apocalypse Now!": "Never get off the boat, never get off the boat! I've got to remember that: never get off the boat! Hi tiger, bye tiger!" Bitten again.

Sore in the Jungle

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I remember that the last revi

I remember that the last revision of the Beige G3 ROM was a pretty different thing than the others. Maybe that would help?

jt
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ROMs

Captain_Z wrote:
We should check with JT (Trash80toG4) or TiMacLover... they are the only other two who I know have PowerExpress towers, and see about if they made any progress made with theirs (IIRC, JT has a ROM on his EVT2 PEx board.)

Yep, I've got the socketed PLCC ROMs on the PEx EVT-2 MLB. I get boot chimes reliably when I use PC133 RAM, but it doesn't go any farther. Should using the RAM specified elsewhere in this thread make a difference?

I'm on hold until I get a G4 accelerator for it, the tech folks said I should have about a 90% chance of success.

jt

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try using 3.3v EDO. That sho

try using 3.3v EDO. That should work much better

jt
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Thanks for the info . . .

. . . gotta find some of that stuff now! Any minimum speed requirements, I'm assuming 70 ns would probably work?

jt

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60ns is probably best, but I

60ns is probably best, but I don't know for sure.

jt
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No joy in PExVille . . .

. . . the new memory (1 SIMM: 32MB EDO 60ns) doesn't seem to have done the trick. I still get the boot chimes every time, and the HDD and CD actually make some encouraging noises now, but no bootup as yet. I'll have to try to find a disk tools floppy, maybe that'll work. One of these days I'll hook up the serial port to another Mac and see if any .txt shows up . . . can't even recall the process name ATM . . . way too tired.

I think I'll just keep saving greenbacks toward a G4 card, the 604e Kansas pro.c card may not be compatable with PEx, dunno . . .

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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OpenFirmware?

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone booted successfully into OF on a PEx?

dan k

jt
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NAFAIK . . .

. . . the only PEx I've ever heard of running successfully would be the one Dr. Bob mentioned using at work. I don't recall seeing any screen shots of ASP info on the 'fritter or ComputerBarn sites or any .txt claiming the systems were operable, for that matter.

How about it, z, have you heard of any PEx system booting reliably?

I can't check those sites myself, ATM, my only web access is the local WiFi hotspots with "beater" my (as yet) unaccelerated 1400c/166.

jt ::)

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re: OpenFirmware?

Err, I didn't mean boot successfully, but rather just boot to an OF prompt? And not (necessarily) to onboard video, could be over the serial port as well.

OK then, I'll rephrase my question - Has anyone tried booting a PEx to OpenFirmware using a terminal connection through the serial port?

dan k

jt
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Tried it once . . .

. . . unsuccessfully, back when I was using PC133. Gotta give it a try now that I've got EDO on board.

jt

p.s. your question was perfectly clear, I was elaborating about PEx boot blues.

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I was just wondering, were th

I was just wondering, were there any advantages of using apparently hard to find 3.3v DRAM instead of SDRAM?

jt
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YUP!

Dr. Bob said that the PC series SDRAM DIMMs wouldn't work . . . I'd like to hear a definitive explanation as to why! IIRC, terms like "Fast Page Mode" were bandied about earlier in the thread.

jt

p.s. the DIMM I got wasn't ECC enabled, I assume the missing ICs wouldn't matter to PEx . . . is that true?

Jon
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SDRAM is faster than EDO whi

SDRAM is faster than EDO which is faster than FPM. On a 66MHz bus FPM is 5-3-3-3 for 60ns, EDO is 5-2-2-2, SDRAM is 5-1-1-1. The chipset has to know how to handle the timings and what features to expect of the RAM.

Is there any chance the things require the of ECC or MAYBE use BEDO (Burst EDO)?

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Still no joy . . .

. . . I get startup chimes with the Kansas proc card (high performance or some such) and with my 9500 proc card, but neither ejects a non-system floppy disk. The system just sits there . . . eventually I'll get the recommended G4 card/carrier to test in it.

Gotta love those 30 day money back guarantees!

jt Wink

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Re: SDRAM is faster than EDO whi

Jon wrote:
Is there any chance the things require the of ECC or MAYBE use BEDO (Burst EDO)?

From memory, non-ECC and unbuffered EDO or FPM 168 pin 3.3v

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PEx Info and Outputting to Open Firmware should be the #1 Goal

Hawaii Cruiser,

You noted on the forum that by the RAM slots is printed "NB DRAM 3.3 VOLTS". I believe this means Non-Buffered (unbuffered) DRAM 3.3 Volts, which some PCs used before PC66 SDRAM was adopted. This RAM has access times of 50-60ns, while PC66 has access times of 10ns. Here is a link to Micron's page for EDO/FPM Modules: 168-Pin Nonbuffered DIMMs.
http://www.micron.com/products/modules/edofpm/partlist.aspx?pincount=100-Pin&version=Nonbuffered&package=DIMM

You definately should not put 5V DIMMs in any slots and probably should not put PC66/100/133 SDRAM in any slot either.

The motherboard bus speed is likely 50MHz, since on the AppleFritter prototype page about the PowerExpress (http://applefritter.com/prototypes/pex/index.html) the anonymous contributor stated the PowerExpress had a 275MHz processor. That would be a 5.5 multiplier. No other bus speed would allow for 275MHz. It seems silly that Apple didn't go to 66MHz, since that is what most comparable new PCs would have been using in 1996-1997 when the PowerExpress was being developed.

The SCSI-3 that is on the board was originally used in the Apple Network Server 500/700. The other SCSI bus is likely Fast SCSI-2, which uses Apple's "Mesh" controller.

Since your PowerExpress motherboard makes boot sounds, that indicates it has ROM. The two chips in the lower-left corner are the developer flash ROMs, which would have been soldered to the motherboard in those blank spots when it came to final production. Apple has always included a ROM slot in every Power Mac 7300 to 9600, but has never put the ROM on a card. Perhaps some Mac clones based of these machines may have had their ROMs on cards.

Putting a G3 ROM or any other ROM into the ROM slot is unlikely to help. Since your PowerExpress already has ROM, putting a ROM card into the slot is likely to confuse the system. An example of this is that when I put a G3 ROM into the ROM slot on a Power Mac 9500, this system will not boot. It makes a startup sound, but will do nothing else. When there is already ROM on the board additional ROM creates trouble.

To determine if the PowerExpress motherboard is working at all, you really should see if you can get into Open Firmware. If the PowerExpress is like a Power Mac 9600 or any other PowerSurge Mac, it likely outputs Open Firmware to the Modem Port, which is the lower serial port of the two. You need to connect your PowerExpress to another Mac with a Mac serial cable. The other Mac needs to be running a Terminal application like ZTerm. When you startup the PowerExpress, hold down Apple(Command)+Option+O+F. If the computer is functioning, it should display the output on the other Mac running the Terminal program.

When PCI based Macs boot, they first complete a hardware check. If that is successful, you will hear the normal boot noise. If not, you will hear the crash noise. Upon completing a successful hardware test, the computer then loads Open Firmware, which is also stored in the ROM. Open Firmware examines all the hardware installed in your computer and generates a Device Tree, among other things. From there, Open Firmware can do two things. It can boot the computer from the "Default device", which is the Mac OS ROM partition, or it can boot into OS X directly if installed.

When booting into Mac OS 9, Open Firmware loads another partition of the ROM, which is the Mac OS ROM, and passes to it the Device Tree it generated. When the Mac OS ROM loads, it displays the familiar grey screen with the Happy Mac Face upon finding a System Folder. From there Mac OS 9 is loaded. In "NewWorld" Macs, Open Firmware loads the Mac OS ROM from a file stored in the System Folder on the hard drive.

Open Firmware can also boot directly into Mac OS X. If OS X is installed, Open Firmware can load a file stored on the hard drive called BootX, which then loads the Mac OS X kernel.

So you see, trying to get your PowerExpress into Open Firmware should be your first goal, since Open Firmware loads everything else. Because your PowerExpress motherboard is a developer prototype, it may stop at Open Firmware by default for debugging purposes. That may be why you never get any video signal. Connect it to another Mac via the Modem Port and see what happens.

I hope this helps.

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What I said! (err, WISH I'd said!)

"powersurge9600" wrote:
So you see, trying to get your PowerExpress into Open Firmware should be your first goal, since Open Firmware loads everything else. Because your PowerExpress motherboard is a developer prototype, it may stop at Open Firmware by default for debugging purposes. That may be why you never get any video signal. Connect it to another Mac via the Modem Port and see what happens.

Word! :coolmac:

powersurge9600, nicely written, very well informed summary.

dan k

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Thanks. OS 9 and X on a PEx?

Thank you for the positive comment Dan.

I would really like to see someone finally get one of these PowerExpress prototypes working. If someone could boot a PowerExpress into Open Firmware, much could be learned about these machines.

Once in Open Firmware, the user can type boot /AAPL,ROM and the computer should attempt to boot the Mac OS ROM.

It seems Apple was not far from releasing the Power Macintosh 9700 before it was cancelled. I think it likely that the computer will boot OS 8 or 9 just as easily as any other Mac. From the looks of DigiBarn's PowerExpress, their machine seems to be fully functional. The inside of the case is filled with dust, indicating that the machine was on a lot. It also has a video card and SCSI card with hard drive installed. Whoever previously owned it appears to have used it.

I also believe PowerExpress Macs are capable of booting OS X. Apple wrote the necessary drivers for PowerExpress Macs to boot OS X. In the System Disk control panel included with OS X Public Beta there is the necessary Open Firmware NVRAM patches to boot OS X on PEx machines. Ryan Remple has included these NVRAM patches in XPostFacto along with a kernel extension for PowerExpress Macs. If someone could boot OS X 10.3 that would be neat to see.

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ROM hunt

Wow, thanks for all the input here. I'll have to reread and reread it all to try and figure out exactly what it all means--more Mac learning and it's all illuminating and fascinating. I'm pretty sure the 3.3v unbuffered edo that I've got is the right RAM. It gives me the chime without the "kill me" crash and it fits nicely and makes sense since a lot of the Tanzania motherboards used 3.3v DRAM. I tried a PM 6100 ROM card, but no luck, which isn't too surprising. A lot of the clones do have ROM cards, and I've got my eyes on the Powercenter Pro and the Powerwave auctions so that I can pick up one. I've been told that the Powercomputing clones mostly used the same ROM card--don't know if that's true or not, but they were all Tanzania based and the Powerwave had the same gestalt as the PM 9500, while a lot of the others were the same as the PM 7200. One eBay seller told me he was about to part out a Powercenter Pro, so I should probably get my claws on a ROM card sometime soon. For some reason the Applefritter site no longer loads up on my computer at home--via RoadRunner--don't know why--so I'm using the library at the moment, but I'll print out and read over the latest suggestions here and let you know what happens. Thanks again.

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Focus on outputting Open Firmware to the Modem Port!

I don't think sticking different ROMs into the ROM slot is going to get you anywhere. Your board has its ROM. The ROM contains code that is specific to your hardware. Sticking older ROM cards from Power Macs 7300-9600, 4400s, or clones is very unlikely to help.

Focus on outputting Open Firmware through the Modem port to another Mac! Since your PowerExpress motherboard makes a proper boot sound and then sits doing nothing else, it is very possible it may be stopping at Open Firmware by default because it is a development board. Open Firmware loads the Mac OS. If you can get into Open Firmware it will be a major step forward.

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ermmm, mebbe ya wanna sell it?

Hey Hawaii Cruiser! Maybe I'm crazy, but am I sensing a reluctance to go much further with this board? If by any chance you decide you want to bail on this project, I'm hereby making an offer to buy it from you. Or trade you for it a working normal 9600 MLB . . . or whatever.

Just wanted to get my offer in, just in case. Biggrin

If I'm mistaken, I apologize. Blum 3

And now, back to the usual errrrm, stuff.

dan k

(that's -}macdan at comcast dot net{-, just in case . . .)

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taking a breather

Sorry if my enthusiasm has waned a little. I bought a regular 9600 motherboard off eBay back in February, so it's in the 9600 case now amusing my daughter, and the PEx motherboard is in a box on the shelf. I've got the 9600 rigged up in a shelf system with speakers, etc., so it's a bit of a bother to pull out. I thought I would wait until I picked up a Mac clone ROM card before I pulled it all out and tried getting the PEx to boot again and try the Open Firmware suggestions. Unfortunately, no clone ROM cards have shown up on eBay, so I've still just been waiting and keeping myself very distracted by the surf on the southshore.
I'm still a bit mystified about the ROM. Since we get the chime, then there's some kindof ROM somewhere. CaptainZ gets the chime but he says he doesn't have the two pads in the left corner that I have that has been suggested as the location of the ROM that creates the chime. Anyway, none of us have the standard four 1mb ROM chips soldered to our boards, so I don't really understand how this machine will ever boot without some kind of ROM card installed. But, of course, I really don't know what I'm talking about.
So, I'm going to hold out for a little while longer and see if a clone card shows up so I can deal with everything in one swoop.
I have also thought about someday putting the PEx motherboard back up for sale on eBay so someone else can have a go at it. I'll post a heads-up here if and when I do. I've also thought of putting it in a frame and hanging it on my wall--it's a very handsome devil, after all--but I guess that would be rather selfish and not beneficial to posterity. I'll keep y'all posted.

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Forget installing incorrect ROM cards. Try Open Firmware!

Hawaii Cruiser,

I don’t think sticking a ROM card from any Mac Clone is going to work. Your PowerExpress motherboard likely has its ROM in the form of those two flash chips at the lower left corner. Since the motherboard is a development prototype, Apple likely used removable flash chips for debugging purposes. If you stick another ROM into the ROM-slot, the machine definitely won’t boot.

Besides, any ROM card you stick into the PowerExpress will have incorrect versions of Open Firmware and the Mac OS ToolBox. Hard-coded Open Firmware aliases and addresses would be incorrect for the PowerExpress motherboard and the Mac OS Toolbox would lack drivers for that type of motherboard.

If you would attempt to enter Open Firmware that could potentially tell you much about the motherboard. Because your PowerExpress is a development motherboard, auto-boot? may be set to False in Open Firmware instead of the normal default of True. What this means is that the computer may stop at the Open Firmware command prompt, which is likely being outputted to the Modem Port.

Testing this hypothesis would be quite simple. First, plug a serial cable into the Modem Port on your PowerExpress. It is the lower serial port of the two. Second, connect the other end of the serial cable into the serial port of another Mac. Third, use a program such as ZTerm on the second Mac to see the Open Firmware output from the PowerExpress. Fourth, start up the PowerExpress hold down Apple+Option+O+F. If all goes well, the Open Firmware output should display in ZTerm.

I created a webpage with you in mind that explains all about Open Firmware, how to access it, and how to use it.

You can see the page at my Yahoo site here.
http://www.geocities.com/pm9600g4/index2.html

If you can’t access Open Firmware then your PowerExpress really doesn’t work. Open Firmware is the first thing to load after the hardware initialization checks. Without Open Firmware, you can’t load any operating system.

I hope this helps.

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Wow!

Amazing, thanks! I will try the Open Firmware, probably next weekend when I have the time.
I was holding out a last hope for the clone ROM because I corresponded with someone who outbid me for a Powercomputing Powerwave motherboard, thinking he might sell me the ROM card, but he said he needed it, and he checked the part number on the card and then compared it with the ROM card in a Powercenter tower he has, and it was the same number and looked identical, so it sounded like there might be some kind of generic ROM among the clones. Anyways, I just won an auction today with a collection of RAM from a 9600 and it also included a ROM card from a Powercenter, so I should have that by next weekend as well and I'll be able to confirm your prognosis, or maybe we'll all be surprised and the ROM card will work. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a computer surprised me. I've found them always full of surprises--usually ones that take days to overcome.
The only question I see in your diagnosis is, CaptainZ says he doesn't have the two chips in the left corner, so how does he get the chime?
I do very much appreciate your interest and time spent.

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ROM chips on the PowerExpress and boot sounds

As far as I have been able to determine in both this PowerExpress thread and the previous one on AppleFritter, ( http://www.applefritter.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=apple;action=display;num=1070916360 ), CaptainZ has been able to get the boot chimes on his PowerExpress Manhattan and the EVT2 PowerExpress tower. Both of these motherboards have their PLCC ROMs installed in the lower-left corner sockets. The EVT2 PowerExpress motherboard is actually owned by JT (Trash80toG4). In addition to his PowerExpress Manhattan motherboard, CaptainZ also has an EVT4 PowerExpress motherboard, which does not have its PLCC ROM installed. I have read through both AppleFritter forum threads and can find nowhere that he has gotten the EVT4 motherboard to make a boot chime without its PLCC ROM chips. Additionally, on the first page of this thread, a person going by the username kwikdeth, said he was the other person to purchase one of the two PowerExpress motherboards that you also purchased. According to him, his motherboard does not have its ROM chips and therefore doesn’t boot or make any sounds. He says it just quietly sits there.

I would be really surprised if CaptainZ’s EVT4 PowerExpress motherboard could make any boot sounds without those two ROM chips. If suprisingly it could, then that would mean the hardware diagnostic routines and boot sounds are stored in one of the other many chips on the motherboard. I highly doubt that though.

If your PowerExpress has its ROM stored in those two flash chips, which I suspect, putting another ROM card into the ROM slot will likely not work. Having different ROMs on one motherboard seems to always cause trouble. In the original AppleFritter PowerExpress thread, CaptainZ noted that sticking another ROM into the ROM slot caused the system to produce no startup sound. I have seen this too, when I once put a G3 ROM card into a 9500 just to see what would happen. Doing so causes the system to completely not work.

However, if anything you try brings some progress that would be excellent. I hope to see screen shots one day of your PowerExpress running either OS 9 or OS X. If you can get your PowerExpress into Open Firmware, it will tell you information about the motherboard and take you a step closer to booting an operating system.

On another note, I was recently researching any information I could find about the VCI bus present on PowerSurge Macs and the PowerExpress. From what little Apple documentation there is, it appears the VCI bus is a 64-bit PCI bus that runs at the main system bus speed. The VCI slot connector on your PowerExpress is indeed a 64-bit PCI connector. Because the VCI slot on the PowerExpress does not have access to the back of the computer, I suspect Apple intended the slot purely for a TriMedia DSP card that would accelerate video compression and decompression.

I hope you have success with Open Firmware this weekend.

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Another PEx owner on Applefritter!!!

Hey, I just noticed that there's someone else with a PEx currently on applefritter and he's looking to sell. His has the two chips in the lower left corner. He's in the Marketplace forum. Check it out here:

http://www.applefritter.com/node/7426

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Actually, TiMacLover's PEx Does Not Appear to Have Its ROM

Looking at a side-by-side comparison of Hawaii Cruiser's PowerExpress, which does have its ROM, and TiMacLover's PowerExpress, it seems pretty clear that TiMacLover's PowerExpress is missing its two ROM chips.

Here is a side-by-side comparison

IMAGE(http://www.geocities.com/pm9600g4/pex-rom-comparison.jpg)

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The Images TiMacLover Provided are from CaptainZ.net

The PowerExpress images TiMacLover provided at ( http://photobucket.com/albums/v212/truthstar/pex/ ) are actually from CaptainZ.net ( http://www.captainz.net/site_revision_081604/EVT4_proto.html ). I do not believe they are pictures of the actual PowerExpress motherboard he is selling. So it remains uncertain whether or not his PowerExpress motherboard has its ROM.

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Open Firmware, first attempt

Well, I got my package of RAM and ROM cards, pulled out the 9600, put the PowerExpress motherboard back in, and first checked it with just the 3.3v DRAM and the 450mhz G4 Sonnet processor card. Like before, I just get the chime, "I say that I rescued this company" repeated over and over and no video output. Next I tried with the Powercenter 150 ROM card installed, got the chime once, and then after a long delay of about 30 seconds, I get the "kill me" (broken glass?) sound.
So I removed the Powercenter ROM and did the setup for Open Firmware, running a serial cable from the modem port on the PowerExpress to the modem port on my 8500. I put ZTerm on my 8500 and first tried to open it per instructions holding the shift key down. It did not open while holding the shift key, so I didn't get the first window ("select the desired port") so instead, I simply opened it and did the Connections settings, then powered up the PowerExpress while holding down command,option,O,F, and then received the prompt in ZTerm on the 8500, thus:

Open Firmware 2.0a9
To continue booting the MacOS type:
BYE
To continue booting from the default boot device type:
BOOT
ok
0 >

When I type BYE and hit return the chime starts repeating on the PowerExpress.No new information appears in the ZTerm OF window.

When I type BOOT and hit return the chime starts repeating on the PowerExpress. No new information appears in the ZTerm OF window.

When I type boot/AAPL,ROM, it says "unknown word and returns to prompt.

What next?

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Yeah!! You've got a working PEx!!

Now to read some of the OF docs at Apple. Good starting points include:
Fundamentals of Open Firmware, Part I: The User Interface
Fundamentals of Open Firmware, Part II: The Device Tree
Fundamentals of Open Firmware, Part III: Understanding PCI ...
Invoking the User Interface Via Remote Connection
Open Firmware User Interface Commands and Examples

I'd start by viewing the basic device tree:
0 > dev / ls

then, get a printout of the current OF config:
0 > printenv

finally do complete device tree dump:
0 > dump-device-tree

That last one will duplicate the other two, but it will have so much more stuff you won't know what's important.

Not sure what to do next, but at least that will give you some idea of what you're dealing with.

dan k

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At Last! Open Firmware on a PowerExpress!

At last someone has finally gotten his PowerExpress into Open Firmware! This is a major step forward. It proves your machine has its ROM in those two chips. It also will make it possible to finally boot either Mac OS 9 or X.

First, in order to get Zterm to display the port selection window, you need to hold Shift down once it already begins to load.

Second, when typing Open Firmware commands you must type everything exactly correct or Open Firmware won’t know what you mean. When typing boot /AAPL,ROM there must be a space between boot and the device you are directing it to, in this case /AAPL,ROM.

As dankephoto has suggested, you should type printenv to see the current Open Firmware environment settings. Typing dev / ls will display the device tree so you can see all the devices present on your motherboard (be sure to have all the correct spaces in between the words). Typing dump-device-tree will display all devices one-by-one along with their properties and Forth methods. This will be an extensive listing. Please copy all this information from ZTerm and email it to me in a SimpleText file so I can view it and try to figure out some boot options you might try. Trying to post all the Open Firmware output into this forum will likely result in formatting problems because of various characters that this forum will try to interpret as coding tags.

You may want to review the Open Firmware section of my webpage I created for you titled Working Within Open Firmware to become more familiar with different commands in Open Firmware. It shows how to maneuver through the Device Tree, view device properties, see code behind each word, and numerous other commands.

Hopefully this will help.

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Apply These NVRAM Patches to Your PowerExpress

Hawaii Cruiser,

Applying the proper Open Firmware patches into your PowerExpress’s NVRAM may help to correct some bugs. I tried postings these patches into my previous forum post, but not all of the code was being displayed. I believe the forum was interpreting some the characters as formatting tags. I tried to correct this, but could not successfully. Therefore, I have created another webpage for you that has all the necessary information you need to apply the proper NVRAM patches to your PowerExpress.

You can access it at the following link.
http://www.geocities.com/pm9600g4/index3.html

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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Open Firmware read dev / ls

Open Firmware 2.0a9
To continue booting the MacOS type:
BYE
To continue booting from the default boot device type:
BOOT
ok
0 > boot / AAPL,ROM DEFAULT CATCH!, code=FFFFFFF6 at %SRR0: FF80CB10 %SRR1:
0000B070
ok
0 > dev / ls

Children of the node:
FF82DB78: / [AAPL,PEX MacRISC]

Node Adr Node Name Compatible

FF82EF80: /cpus@0
FF82F098: /PowerPC,60?@0
FF82F990: /chosen@0
FF82FAC0: /memory@0
FF82FC08: /openprom@0
FF82FCC8: /AAPL,ROM@FF000000 [AAPL,ROM]
FF82FF10: /options@0
FF8303B0: /aliases@0
FF830580: /packages@0
FF830608: /deblocker@0,0
FF830DD0: /disk-label@0,0
FF831360: /obp-tftp@0,0
FF833DA0: /mac-files@0,0
FF8345B0: /mac-parts@0,0
FF834E88: /fat-files@0,0
FF836898: /iso-9660-files@0,0
FF8373A8: /xcoff-loader@0,0
FF837DE0: /pe-loader@0,0
FF8386A8: /elf-loader@0,0
FF839C90: /terminal-emulator@0,0
FF839D28: /bandit@C9000000 [denali]
FF83B1E8: /gc@10 [heathrow]
FF83C3A0: /adb@19000 [adb]
FF83CF30: /keyboard@2
FF83D8E8: /mouse@3
FF83DB30: /mesh@10000 [mesh]
FF83FC70: /sd@0,0 [sd]
FF840988: /st@0,0 [st]
FF841868: /bmac@11000 [bmac]
FF8438C8: /escc@13000 [escc CHRP,es0]
FF843AA0: /ch-a@13020 [ch-a CHRP,es2]
FF844288: /ch-b@13000 [ch-b CHRP,es3]
FF844A70: /awacs@14000 [awacs]
FF844BC0: /fdc@15000 [pex,fdc]
FF84A130: /sixty6@1C000 [sixty6]
FF84A2C8: /nvram@1D000 [nvram]
FF84A408: /via-cuda@16000 [via-cuda]
FF84B578: /rtc@0,0 [rtc]
FF84BAF0: /power-mgt@0,0 [power-mgt]
FF84BC30: /ata0@20000 [heathrow-ata]
FF84DDB8: /ata1@21000 [heathrow-ata]
FF852D40: /pci106b,11@B
FF852EF0: /ATY,XCLAIMVRPro@E
FF86A4B8: /53c860@11 [pci1000,f]
FF84FEC0: /chaos@F0000000 [chaos]
FF86AA48: /control@B [control]
FF850FC0: /bandit@D9000000 [denali]
FF86C200: /pci106b,11@B
FF86C3B0: /ACARD,6260@D [ACARD,6260]
FF86F058: /disk@0,0 [sd]
FF852450: /fatman@F8000000 [fatman]
FF852550: /open-pic@F2040000 [chrp,open-pic open-pic]
ok
0 >

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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Open Firmware read printenv

0 > printenv

VARIABLE CURRENT DEFAULT
little-endian? false false
real-mode? false false
auto-boot? true true
diag-switch? false false
fcode-debug? false false
oem-banner? false false
oem-logo? false false
use-nvramrc? false false
real-base -1 -1
real-size 100000 100000
virt-base -1 -1
virt-size 100000 100000
load-base 4000 4000
pci-probe-list -1 -1
screen-#columns 64 64
screen-#rows 28 28
selftest-#megs 0 0
boot-device /AAPL,ROM /AAPL,ROM
boot-file
diag-device fd:diags fd:diags
diag-file
input-device ttya ttya
output-device ttya ttya
oem-banner
oem-logo
nvramrc
boot-command boot boot
ok
0 >

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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Open Firmware read dump-device-tree

0 > dump-device-tree
/
PROPERTIES:
name device-tree
model Power Macintosh
compatible AAPL,PEX
MacRISC
AAPL,cpu-id 39006086
#address-cells 00000001
#size-cells 00000001
clock-frequency 02FAF080

METHODS:
install-denali2 make-cpu-properties make-motherboard-l2-prop
dma-sync
dma-map-out dma-map-in dma-free dma-alloc map-out
map-in
decode-unit close open ?pdm

/cpus@0
PROPERTIES:
name cpus
device_type cpus

#address-cells 00000001
#size-cells 00000000

METHODS:
close open

/cpus@0/PowerPC,60?@0
PROPERTIES:
name PowerPC,60?
device_type cpu
reg 00000000
cpu-version 000C0209
graphics
external-control
clock-frequency 1AD27480
bus-frequency 02FAF080
timebase-frequency 00BEBC20
reservation-granule-size00000020
tlb-split
d-tlb-sets 00000040
d-tlb-size 00000080
i-tlb-sets 00000040
i-tlb-size 00000080
tlb-sets 00000040
tlb-size 00000080
d-cache-size 00004000
i-cache-size 00004000
d-cache-sets 00000080
i-cache-sets 00000080
i-cache-block-size 00000020
d-cache-block-size 00000020
existing 00000000 80000000 80000000 80000000
available 00000000 F0000000 F2000000 0D800000 FF900000 FF700000
translations 00004000 00400000 00004000 00000010 C8000000 01000000 C8
000000 00000028
C9000000 00010000 C9000000 00000028 C9800000 00001000 C9
800000 00000028
C9C00000 00001000 C9C00000 00000028 D9000000 00010000 D9
000000 00000028
D9800000 00001000 D9800000 00000028 D9C00000 00001000 D9
C00000 00000028
F0000000 00010000 F0000000 00000028 F0800000 00001000 F0
800000 00000028
F0C00000 00001000 F0C00000 00000028 F8000000 00001000 F8
000000 00000028
FF000000 00400000 FF000000 00000000 FF800000 00100000 00
400000 00000010

METHODS:
translate modify unmap map release
claim
More [,,q] ?

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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to be continued....

Sorry, it's near 3am and I need to get up tomorrow and go buy the Mrs. some flowers for mother's day so I'm off to bed. I'll try to continue tomorrow night. Powersurge9600, I will email you the original Simpletext copy of the openfirmware now. Dankephoto, let me know your email address and I'll send it to you too if you want it. The applefritter format did squish things a bit.

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Excellent!

Thank you for sending me your PowerExpress's Open Firmware output. It’s rather interesting.

First, I wanted to note that when you type boot /AAPL,ROM, there should be no space between the backslash and AAPL,ROM.
It should look like this:
0 > boot /AAPL,ROM
Not like this:
0 > boot / AAPL,ROM DEFAULT CATCH!

See if this makes a difference when trying to boot the Mac OS ROM.

Second, type devalias (no space in between) to see all the Open Firmware device aliases.

Third, I recommend inputting the NVRAM script into your PowerExpress, which may help correct some bugs. Instructions for that are located here:
http://www.geocities.com/pm9600g4/index3.html

Fourth, the motherboard bus speed is indeed 50MHz.
clock-frequency 02FAF080 \\50,000,000Hz or 50MHz

Lastly, if you would, please dump the entire device tree with the command dump-device-tree. When it displays the message More [<space>,<cr>,q] ? press the space bar to continue displaying more. Please send me the entire output, which will be very long.

Thanks.

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Comments about the PowerExpress's Device Tree

After studying the PowerExpress’s Device Tree and comparing it to the Device Trees of my 9600 and G3 AIO (Open Firmware 2.5, Revision C ROM), I have made some interesting observations.

It appears that the PowerExpress does not use the SWIM floppy controller, but instead uses one identified as /fdc@15000. All other PCI-Macs including Beige G3s use the SWIM floppy controller.

It also appears that the PowerExpress does not use the MACE 10bt ethernet controller, but instead uses one identified as /bmac@11000. It seems likely that this is a 100bt ethernet controller, unlike Beige G3s, which still used the MACE ethernet controller.

The 68-pin SCSI that is onboard the PowerExpress shows up as /53c860@11 [pci1000,f] on the Device Tree and is a PCI device. I looked up the chipset and it is a Symbios Ultra SCSI, 8-bit, single channel chipset that has speeds up to 20MB/s. It is not as fast as I originally had speculated.

Unlike other PCI-Macs, the ADB is not a child of Via-Cuda on the Device Tree. Ultimately what this means I am not sure.

Also, the PRAM strangely does not show up at all on the Device Tee. On all other PCI-Macs, the PRAM and NVRAM show up as two distinct devices. The PRAM would normally appear as a child of Via-Cuda.

Lastly, the PowerExpress has two packages not present on Macs up through the Beige G3s. One is /pe-loader@0,0, which is a CHRP compliant package necessary to open a PE boot-loader. This would be needed to boot Windows NT 4.0 for PowerPC. The second new package is /elf-loader@0,0, which is a CHRP compliant package that is necessary to open boot-loaders in the more common ELF format. Unlike other PCI-Macs, the PowerExpress does not have the aix-boot package.

I have made a second PowerExpress page that displays the Device Tree properly, with comments next to certain devices. You can access it at the bottom of the following page:
http://www.geocities.com/pm9600g4/index3.html

Please supply me with more PowerExpress Open Firmware output!

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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PEx continued

It's a no go on the boot /AAPL,ROM. When I type it that way and hit return, the chime on the PEx just starts to cycle, and there's no movement at all in the Zterm.
Where, exactly, in the Zterm readout should I paste the NVRAM patches?

Hawaii Cruiser's picture
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PEx OpenFirmware read devalias

0 > devalias
mouse /bandit/gc/adb/mouse
screen /chaos/control
tape /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/mesh@10000
ad /bandit/gc/ata/ad
kbd /bandit/gc/adb/keyboard
ttya /bandit/gc/escc/ch-a
ttyb /bandit/gc/escc/ch-b
alias /aliases@0
pci /bandit@C9000000
pci1 /bandit@C9000000
mac-io /bandit@C9000000/gc@10
adb /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/adb@19000
scsi-ext /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/mesh@10000
net /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/bmac@11000
enet /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/bmac@11000
scc /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000
com1 /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-a@13020
scca /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-a@13020
modem /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-a@13020
com2 /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-b@13000
sccb /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-b@13000
printer /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/escc@13000/ch-b@13000
sound /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/awacs@14000
fd /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/fdc@15000
floppy /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/fdc@15000
video-out /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/sixty6@1C000
nvram /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/nvram@1D000
rtc /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/via-cuda@16000/rtc@0,0
power /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/via-cuda@16000/power-mgt@0,0
ata /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/ata0@20000
ata0 /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/ata0@20000
ata-int /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/ata0@20000
ata1 /bandit@C9000000/gc@10/ata1@21000
vci0 /chaos@F0000000
pci2 /bandit@D9000000
memory /fatman@F8000000
interrupt /open-pic@F2040000
ok

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