Hi. Just joined the forum.
Just before christmas i bought a strange machine here in Ireland.
Have been stripping and cleaning it for last 2 weeks having a great bit of fun in the process.
I have kept a video log of the thing so far. Now I am working on the motherboard , awaiting parts. I have very little experience with apple ii's, most of my apple machines are 68K macs.
Some of the chips on the motherboard heat up when it is plugged in, im told they might be fried.
here is the video log so far if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcXkb0DXmQU&t=1288s
I rekon ill need some (probally allot ) of help getting the machine back to life.
cheers from Ireland
Welcome to the board!
This is really an interesting machine you've got there - like to watch your videos - thanks for sharing.
Greetings from Germany.
Hello falen5,
welcome to the board....
just watched the videos...
interesting project....
just one mention at the moment:
when you tested the mainboard the RAM chip from the language card was NOT
relocated to the mainboard and therefor the third row of RAM chips was incomplete...
at the other hand it's better to startup debugging process fist with 16 kB only...
read carefully this page:
http://www.appleii-box.de/D04_resurection.htm
I will add some further comments this evening...
sincerely
speedyG
Hi 6502e
Thanks for the kind comments.
To most people(outside of vintage computers) this find would be seen as junk!!!
for me it is pure treasure. With the best bit being the contents on the hard drive (if it is even still there)
slow progress, but worth it
Hi speedyG
Oh man .. thank you . That link is exactly what i am looking for.
I cant read schemathics, have the most basic understanding of electronics ( i know what resistors, capacitors, diodes and transistors do... thats it)
I have a large collection of 68k macs and recapped most of them sucessfully with the help (allot of help) of the good people from the 68k liberation army. Infact without thoes great guys I would never have fixed any machines.
At the moment i am waiting on parts. network resistor for hard drive and 74 logic chips for motherboard. I removed every chip from the motherboard to clean and reinstall, but due to rust several of the chips legs were broken off. I repaired many of them(soldering on a new leg from a doner chip).
When i tried to power it up I had random , wavy static. I then noticed both legs of the crystal were broken. Soldered thoes and got a black screen with collums.
I decided to be paitent and wait for the replacement parts as the board was missing 4 x 74 logic chips. But stupidly I kept at it. I have 4 apple iie's. I decided to replace the cpu.
I removed the 6502 and tried a 65c02a. Nothing. Replace the origional. sadly I notice there are now a few chips getting warm.
I think I have done damage.
I know I inserted the 65c02a the correct way but it seemed like a bad idea at the time. Lack of knowledge has probally done damage.
The current status is when powering up the board I get a clean green square
will add some more pics I took during the effort so far.
It seems i cant add pictures to each post. Do i keep adding images to the origional post??
cheers
sorry for all the newbie questions but how do i add pictures
I cant seem to add them to the origonal post
clicking 'insert/add image' just adds code!!!
Just cool down....
wait till later in the evening the more detailed reply will arrive....
it will save a lot of time and frustrating experiences if you can
perform some kind of patience....
and probably it might beware you from heading ahead to further damage...
Update to the topic of attaching pictures:
the brief explenation is at this page:
http://www.applefritter.com/?q=filter/tips
or a bit more explenative at the thread:
http://www.applefritter.com/?q=content/heating-issue
and at that thread scroll down till posting #8
and a few followup postings till #13...
announced detailed reply:
remark to the interfacecards at video #2 at picture of interfacecards
at 19 min 50 seconds:
top left with blue connectionplug:
ST402 Interface to main logic controller of Harddisk with ST402 bus.
left mid card is the 80 column video board ( it later must be inserted back at slot no. 3 )
left bottom card is a ALS Z80 Card that is used with CPM operation system
(it should later be plugged back into slot no. 2 )
you may assume that on the harddisk of that days there was as operation system
not Apple DOS but instead CPM 2.20B installed.
right top card is the diskette drive interface ( normally installed in slot 6 )
but in this system probably located in slot 4
right middle card is the language card ( additional 16 kB RAM )
it must be installed to slot 0 !
the left 2 rows of chips are 4116 RAM chips.
at the bottom there is the cable that is to be inserted in the mainboard at
position E3 at the mainboard.
If the languagecard is not inserted in the mainboard
- it must be stored in an antistatic bag !
And at the bottom row of chips on that card the one chip at the right side of the cableplug
is the chip that is to be relocated at the mainboard at position E3 to complete the row of RAM in row E !
Pay attention to the orientation ( notch on top of the chip same side like all other chips in that row !!!
right bottom card is serial interface to printer or modem.
it shall later be reinserted in slot 1.
remark to video #4:
the 3,5 inch drive is a IDE drive.
The original drive at the system has ST402 Interface.
That won't match!
So if you want to get a drive working with your interface
you need a drive with ST402 Interface.
If you don't have a Apple II keyboard it's recommended to order from Mike Willegal
( member here ) a PS2 Apple keyboard adapter:
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/appleii-kb-int.htm
It permits you to use a normal old fashioned PS2 PC-keyboard at the Apple II connector.
Maybe you have to search at Corey's pages for that adapter because Mike has handed some of
his business over to Corey.
Corey`s site:
http://www.myapplecomputer.net/
speedyG
Welcome to the land of the 'Fritter Critters!
The Case of your unit looks like an old HP-88 or 89.
Maybe even a Heathkit.
I'll watch the entire video later today.
A very interesting unit.
Steven
Thanks speedyG
as of now the machine and all its parts are put away. Have to wait for the parts.
There is a harddrive interface - it is a very large board with a daughter board plugged into that. Thats why im trying to upload the pictures to show you
looks like i have to upload all the pictures online to share them. The entire story of this machine thus far is on a different forum including all the pictures. I dont know it it would be appropriate to share the link here.
I have learnt to become very paitent working on old machines speedyG. I am just delighted with that link you shared as it is the first good link i have read.
probably another week or 2 before any of the parts arrive so i have this time to learn about the board.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
hi gsmcten
From searching I think the machine was originally called a Iskra Delta Partner. A machine from yugoslavia.
After more searching I found some pictures of the inside of this machine here - http://www.retrocomputer.tux.hu/index.php?option=com_wgpicasa&view=album&album=5975666009977580785&page=1&Itemid=14
there are 6 pages of pictures of the machine and its inside's. The only part of the machine that i have that are the same is the case.
cheers
we don't bother here about sharing links to other sites and their threads...
we just appreciate to provide such links that way, that the copyrights are respected....
there is no sense in being jealous about other sites... - but it's boring to refuse information...
the target finally is - to keep the machines running and in good shape...
and that needs information...
therefor that's what we bother about....
speedyG
UPDATE:
proposal for debugging order:
1 Get the mainboard up and running without cards...
2 Get the diskdrive and its controller up and running
3 get the language card up and running
4 get the serial card up and running
5 get the cpm card up and running
6 get the 80 column card up and running
7 attempting to get the harddisk up and running...
Update to other thread:
Posting #72:
That pins have not been burned.
they have been broken for purpose of setup for the drive setting adress
and interface typ !
just keep cool .... and patient ...
i'll walk along the other thread too and add here some remarks....
according to the proposed scedule of debugging i recommend to stay back from
other attempts out of that order....
the order was determined by the needs while debugging.....
and therefor the hardisk access is the last need....
you will need other parts far more early for debugging !
tried to download that picture from the mainboard at the other site....
was not possible.....
please place here a link to that picture that will permit a download...
i want to load that picture in photoshop and zoom in for inspection purposes...
just links to 2 other threads to get idea about debugging process:
http://www.applefritter.com/?q=content/apple-ii-dont-store-apple-garage-fixed
http://www.applefritter.com/?q=content/trouble-booting
i do recommend to keep harddisk sitting apart and without power while debugging process
to avoid possible further damage from that drive - untill we start to debug that unit itself!
When making attempt to clean oxydation from aged IC's
check this thread:
http://www.applefritter.com/?q=content/restoring-original-apple-i-progress-report
and look at posting #4 and the included link.
speedyG
This is the motherboard when i first got it out of the machine
https://s29.postimg.org/h26c4jh7b/image.jpg
this is the board today after it has been cleaned. The missing 5 chips are the ones that had pins break off when removed. The chip holder at C1 I removed to inspect the contacts and remove the broken pins. Bad idea. Since I have removed entire socked and awaiting new sockets to replace it
https://postimg.org/image/s7q1gs4dn/
this is the back of the board
https://postimg.org/image/f4uexie5n/
just checked to see if this works. You can download the origional picture from these links.Top left 'Download Origional Image' . 2nd Picture should be around 10mb in size.
Will add more pictures of the rest of the machine
Cant do anything else with the machine until i get the motherboard working. Will start with no cards plugged in, just 1 row or ram. The power supply i am using for the motherboard is the original. It outputs +12.45 , -11.20 , +5.41, -4.74 volts. All boards stored in anti static bags, and use anti static practice when working on them.
For anybody wondering, here is the original thread i started about this machine.
I contains all the pictures of all the different boards etc etc
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/29128-any-thoughts-on-thisit-arrived/
Hello falen5,
besides the missing chips that are waiting to become replaced
i marked in the picture further "suspects".....
red enlighted: 2 electrolytic capacitors seemingly "noname"
might need replacement due to age...
yellow enlighted: This chips still have signs of heavy oxidation...
pins should be cleaned and sockets checked for possible contact problems...
- otherwise replacement is recommended...
chips marked by orange questionmark:
the chipmarks are that bad, that i can't confirm the correct chips
to be in that sockets.....check markings if possible and crosscheck
with the labelmark beside socket that correct chip is inserted...
if no confirmation is possible replacement is recommended...
light blue enlighted area at position C1:
That is space where a socket is to be and inside socket there should
be a 74LS153 ! That socket has been seemingly desoldered without getting replaced.
It must be replaced with working chip !
Light violett enlight area at position B10/C10:
that padarea is very badly damaged by rust / oxydation
clean and check that the 2 pads of the X-pad have been
separated by a clean cut like at Xpad at position C15
marked by white sqare and no. "12"
sincerely
speedyG
SpeedyG - I have to say, Thank you so much for the effort you are putting in. You kindly took the time to study the board. I really apreciate it. Without the skills shared by people like yourself, people like me would have no hope of getting anywhere on these things.
I removed the missing socket as it was the first chip i tried to remove. 4 pins broke off in the removal. I removed the socket housing to examine the condition of the contacts and remove the 4 broken pins. After removal i decided to remove the rest of the contacts and replace the entire socket with a new one. That has been since done and a new chip installed. I now have a single square screen instead if a screen divided by 4 so I assume the socket replacement was a success.( i metered it out and looks good)
This board , when first removed, had some 'goo' that had dripped onto it over time , where ever it was before i got it.Here is the board when it was first removed before I did anything https://postimg.org/image/e93fyjrqj/ I have never cleaned a board as much as I have had to clean this. I have used acetone, hot water, even white spirits to remove this goo. It was all over the cpu and surrounding chips, down in the sockets, all over the pins. In the end very hot water was required to get it off. The board is now as clean as it will ever be. The cleaning peocess (being so intensive) has removed the markings on the 2 capacitors you mention. From the first pictures i took i see that the one next to the power connector was 10uf, 35 volts. Is the other the same?. I will replace both.
I have removed every chip from the board, cleaned the inside of all the pins (used a pencil eraser, and in some cases used very very fine sandpaper). Took 2 days as they are so delicate. Reinstalled them using contact cleaner. Meter out most of them for continuity from back of board to pin ( I recruited her good self to assist).
I will follow your advice on the rest.
Still waiting on replacement parts.
Again, thankyou for your effort and sharing your knowledge
falen5
Hello falen5,
i have seen the other picture of the "early status" by the links in the first posting...
your question:
yes both electrolytic capacitors are of same type.
If you have read about the POLIBLOC in the one link that i mentioned....
it's the safest way to clean pins.... much less dangerous than sandpaper....
It would be usefull to publish links to pictures when chips arrived:
1.last view to display at screen
2.last view to current status of the mainboard..... one at component side and one ar solderside...
- if possible lighting and focus should be that good that we are able to read IC-labels....
sincerely
speedyG
When chips arrive i will make a video showing the display and overall status of the project.
Have recieved some of the chips but still waiting on 2 x 6502 , 4 x 74ls367an - should be here next week.
Have been looking at the cards that were plugged into the machine.
I have a question about this one.
https://postimg.org/image/6ue4665uz/
Is this a super serial card?,
I have been looking at adtpro for transferring .dsk images to the machine ( and my iie's) There is so much software out there
The card has an RS232 output and the lead has a connector that fits a serial port.
Been working on 3 x apple disc ii drives that would not read. Got 2 of them kind of working. The analog board of each drive has 2 pots to calibrate the signal (i think). I have calibrated the rotation speed from the 50 htz pattern on the drive wheel under the drive, cleaned heads, and both of the drives are reading some discs. Saw the disk calibration software, have the .dsk images............. just need to write them to floppy. I have a working double disk duo with both drives working for the writing of the discs.
its all good fun
falen5
Hi,
well it is a Serial Card but it isn't a compatible Apple Super Serial Card (SSC). The Apple Super Serial card has two banks of DIP switches, not just one. The ADTPro software relies on the Apple having an SSC as far as I know. So I don't believe that your card will work with ADTPro.
Have a nice sunday.
Unfortunatly that's not a super serial card.
the correct super seral card looks like this:
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Interface%20Cards/Serial/Apple%20II%20Super%20Serial%20Card/Photos/
But you might give it a try .... maybe it's at least compatible...
otherwise you might be forced to use with ADT the Audio path...
speedyG
Thanks lads
they look similar with the dip switches and connections ok
Will just have to try it at some stage.
I know that making floppies for the apple ii is a heavily discussed topic. So its up to me to learn how to make the null modem connection etc etc
however...........i have just 1 tiny question!!
I have a 5.25 external floppy drive with typical floppy connector, and an apple LC III. This floppy drive can connect to an old PC or the LCIII. Is there any software like Transmac ( a program i use to make floppies for 68k machines on a pc ) that can write the floppies.
I wont ask any futher questions on making floppies ... i promise....
After being careful all through the winter so far.....im after getting the dam flu.........man i feel funky........
her good self told me not to go anywhere, not to do anything, just play with your computer toys!!!!..........Theres always a good side.....even to the flu!!
Had a look at the board again to inspect the pad at B10/C10
They are definately connected. I gently scraped with a screwdrived and the solder/laqure just chipped off to expose the copper trace itself
and it is 100% connected.
This is meant to be open?. I can cut it to be open and see what happens.
https://postimg.org/image/mtnky8n57/
interesting !!
Hope this helps on the chip IDs. And don't cut that trace...it is meant to be there.
A8 74LS257
A10 74LS194
B2 74S86
B9 74LS194
B10 74LS74
B12 74LS11
B13 74LS02
C1 74S195
C3,C4,C5,C6,C7,C8,C9,C10
D3,D4,D5,D6,D7,D8,D9,D10 DRAM (4K X 1 OR 16K X 1) THREE ROWS OF EIGHT
E3,E4,E5,E6,E7,E8,E9,E10
D12 74LS161
E12 74LS153
J13 74LS74
What you need is a copy of the Apple II Reference Manual - January 1978.
thanks airnocker.
wont cut the pad, checking the chips now.
Hello falen5 ( and also airnocker ! )
That trace must definitly get disconnected !
@ airnocker:
if you publish instructions then you should know what you are talking about !
If you would have viewed the previous published pictures the you should have recognized
that also the "O"-pads are closed with a drop of solderlead. And if you really would know
basics about the Apple II mainboard you should also know that only
either the "X"pads
or
the "O"pads
may remain closed and the alternating pads must get disconnected. These pads
are related to timing
either for NTSC
or
PAL video signal !
The board will produce mistakes in timing if both are closed at same time !
In this case all "O"pads are closed by soldering lead drops and all other "X"pads have been cut appart
- except this one pad ! You would have recognized this if you would have examined the previous published pictures !
( Even the picture above ... - see at C14/D14 and at D14/E14 )
It has been forgotten !
So before passing wrong information please stay silent
if you don't really know what you are talking about !
sincerely
speedyG
Thank you speedyG. I'll just bow off this forum since there is doesn't appear to be an ability to communicate politely.
I wish all well.
Hello airnocker,
i just polite asked you to stay silant before passing wrong information.
And i then explained why your advice not to cut that trace is wrong.
If someone passes instuction of handling - the person should at least know
what that instruction results to..... in this case it would cause a mainboard to fail...
in worse case wrong instructions can even damage parts on the mainboard...
and that is for sure something no member wants to happen...
there is no problem if you publish information that is correct...
but you should know whats correct and whats not correct...
speedyG
@speedyG
I believe it's more your attitude on how you formulate your response(s)... because you can answer to someone in a different (none aggressive) way than you did.
That's my personel opinion... as you did something similiar to me a couple of weeks, too.
Hello tokabln,
in most part you'll be right...
but i do make a difference between advice/instruction and at the other hand an opinion....
I'd not reply rough at a opinion...
but if somebody publish a wrong instruction that cause harm
it's another situation !
And in this case it is even more reason to get angry:
If someone enters a thread with a posting it's recommended to check previous postings and given information
to make sure that correct statements are given.
Thats also a question of attitude to show respect to previously given information....
and in this case falen5 had passed links to the mainboard and i even published here also
a picture to that mainboard... airnock could have recognized the point easily just by
proof of the previous postings and by a short view to the picture of the mainboard !
The fact that he then even had given wrong instruction though evidence has been present
that this advice was wrong and that this may cause trouble to falen5 is what really makes me angry...
speedyG
I understand both points of view here.
It seems to me, speedy that it's very easy to make mistakes and give the wrong information.
On the other hand we've got a potentially dangerous situation that can arise from such information.
So we have prevention and doing the work necessary to ensure that the correct information is always given: vs. just give someone what appears to be the correct information according to what seems to be obvious.
It's like if someone wants to use the bus, just give that person the bus map.
But what if it's a map from 5 years ago?
The man who knows what he's doing can more often than not take offence when others who do not know what they are doing suggest a course of action which is completely wrong, incorrect, dangerous, proper.
All of a sudden we've got sacrilege.
I think both points of view are valid but I am not sure that hostilities like this are avoidable.
And I have no idea why.
hello everyone
Got the remaining 74 logic chips. Just waiting on the roms
yesterday i got a simillar board on ebay plus a set of correct eproms.This board is listed as not booting but has all the chips and roms. This gives better chances of getting 1 working.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/112255229572?_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I have a strange situation. I have a short on 5 volt to ground when tested from the power connector. This short disappears when I remove the F8 rom However when I do a continuity test on the F8 rom itself (pin 1 to all others, pin 2 to all others etc etc ) i find no short. How can this chip cause a short on the 5volt rail when none of the pins are shorting with each other. I have been puzzled by this for some time. I have checked the socket, no shorts. The board awaits its replacement roms.
Will have the second board plus the written eproms this week (3 sets of roms... surely ill have enough to bring this board back to life) and will FINALLY be ready to bring this board (or the other one) forward.
I lost out on a apple ii keyboard on ebay. The only one for sale is 160 dollars. This is depressing. But i did find this. A ps2 replacement. Plugs right into the keyboard connector on the apple ii motherboard.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/PS2-Keyboard-adapter-for-APPLE-II-II-/281958164814?hash=item41a604294e:g:yJgAAOSwh-1W3jvp
this would be ok to use?
Its all good fun people.
Kind rgards to all
falen5
Hello falen5,
first congrats that the chips arrived
second the purchased board is similar but not same like yours...
view at A14 the fact that there a 74LS02 is missing
( the one in "other" position than the rest of the chips )
but thats still fine...
in technical view both boards are nearly the same....
i'll examine the pictures tommorow for more details....
third the internal damage at F8 ROM might either be caused internal in the ROM
that way that a internal transistor now acts like a diode and that by measuring continuity
with wrong polarity that damage remains "invisible"...
but there is also a chance that inside of the socket is a damage that without inserted chip
no shortcut exists and only if chip is inserted internal in the socket by spreading of the
clamps a shortcut gets active....
it should be examined which of the problems is really valid...
forth - yes such adapter can be used with a PS2 Keyboard as substitute for a original keyboard.
sincerely
speedyG
Earlier after last post I proceeded to remove F8 socket housing
2 of the clamps broke off. I removed it as slowly and as gently as i could. The 2 that broke were oxidized.
Found no sign of mechanical malfunction of clamps or shorts.
I have new socket to replace entire unit.
Cleaned entire area with acetone
Temporally replaced both clamps with wire to test for short
Still getting short with F8 installed.
Possible diode effect...... I like it. I dont understand much about electronics. But the little that I do understand, like a short, I just have to understand the fault or I will go crazy
Will retest - in both polarity directions. I believe the chip is dead but i have to understand this. If i get a beep across 2 pins in one direction and not in the opposite direction I will be happy. I will understand this 'invisable' short
will order ps/2 adaptor - working board wont be much use without it.
back to the meter
Onwards people....... Onwards!!!!
Breakthrough
Houston , I have a beep!
Got another chip today. DP 8304. Been working on machine all day, swapping chips with spares from a second apple ii board i have bought
First i got crackel noise, swapped another chip and got a beep. It is the 'happy' beep
The display starts as random junk, no caracters , just bars and squares. After about .20 of a second i get the beep and the screen changes to a solid green
I have no keyboard to plug into it , am wondering if this will affect display??
only 2 months at this!!
here are some pictures
power on - https://postimg.org/image/wxqrmqqk9/
.2 of a second later beep and this - https://postimg.org/image/8kq754n5d/
if the display is starting like above then clearing, plus the beep does that mean the roms are all working.
One thing, all the time I have been at this I hvve not seen any characters , no A,B,C or numbers 1,2,3 . Am also wondering if the character rom at A5 dead. The chip itself does not get hot.
anyway.......... I got me a beep in Ireland and I am dam happy!!!!!!!
Here is an update video of where the project is at , at the moment
I connected a IIe up to the analog board to see what would happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7sUASsIGWE
Nearly there with the motherboard folks
Now when I turn it on I get a consistant beep, and the screen goes from lines to a grid
the grid lines reveal the Apple ][ at the top of the screen as more grid lines
sometimes when i turn it on i might get a double beep error and a second or third line of these grid like characters appear
I turn on, get the beep and my display goes from bars to small bars and lines, like characters. It appears to be booting up correctly except the display is not good
heres 2 pictures. In the second picture you can see where the apple logo is supposed to be at the top of the screen
https://postimg.org/image/fz60xkvcj/
https://postimg.org/image/mp2i9sr3h/
I have no II+ keyboard to plug into this yet. Would the missing keyboard cause this, or should I be able to get to the boot screen without it
I have not seen any characters (ABCD, 1234 , %^&* etc etc ) on this machine in all the time I have been working on it
I have replaced every chip on this board, from a spare board,removed a chip, power up, see the result, put in spare, see the result, etc etc,I have gone through all the video chips over and over, cleaned pins, reseated chips a million times!!!.
At this a long time now.
Have gone over the board both sides with a magnafying glass
I have 2 banks of ram. Started with 1 , got the beep. Take out 1 of the ram chips, no beep - just as you expect. Gone to 2 full banks (48k i think) and again if i remove 1 chip no beep. It looks like it is booting. I just cant see it properly
My charcter rom is 341-0036
I think it may be dead
I do have a character rom from a IIe - 341-0150
Can I try the 341-0150 in the II+ instead of the 341-0036 just to see? - or will that blow the chip
cheers folks