Apple 1 Proms remarked

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Apple 1 Proms remarked
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Hello everyone. One of the members here helped me with remarking the A1 and A2 Proms on my Pre NTI board. Sure does make the board present much nicer!

IMAGE(http://www.applefritter.com/files/a1%20chips.jpg)

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Re: Apple 1 Proms remarked

Which technique did you use? The foil? or an epoxy paint stamp?

Cheers,
Corey

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Re: Apple 1 Proms remarked

Since I work for a company that makes the machines that print on IC's, I'll share with you a way you can do this at home with pretty good results provided your patient with experimenting with "inks"...

Use THIS ARTWORK and create a Printed Circuit board so that the printed image is etched away. (Scale the image to fit the MMI Chip)
In essence, you will have a "gravure" plate from which you can use as your master print plate.
Next, set up a jig of sorts that will let you position a silicone print pad LIKE THIS ONE so that it can raise and lower vertically. (like with a drill press as example)
The etched plate should sit below the pad so that when it gets inked, the pad can go down on it lightly so that pressure doesn't squeeze the ink out of the etched gravure well. (causing distortion of the image)
Another challenge is to make up a jig that will hold the IC into position (above the etched plate and below the print pad) for the transfer.

Inks can be made from 2-part epoxy paint or "Testors" white paint, thinned a bit. (will take some experimenting)

Inking the etched plate requires less than a drop over the etched portion, then scraped over using a razor blade so that only the etched wells contain the "ink".
Once you've inked and scraped your gravure plate, use the Silicone pad to "pick up" the image for transfer.
Before the "ink" dries too much, position the IC so that it will "transfer" the image from the silicone pad to the top of the IC.

Have plenty of cleaning solvents and paper towels handy during the process.
Be sure you work in a well ventilated environment.
Good luck!

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Re: Apple 1 Proms remarked

Corey: He used the Toner Reactive Foil (TRF) method and was careful not to duplicate letters as crisp and perfect and to insure the positioning was slightly off. Then the logos were made to look worn and uneven. Just like the originals. I am very happy with them. Now to duplicate a white ceramic CPU as I don't have $2,000 for an original. Corey, I notice on your new web page that you might be addressing this challenge or providing info?

Macnoyd: Excellent post by you and I'm sure members with more expertise than I will utilize your procedure and suggestions.

Regards,
Teddy

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Hello @mackymacface! My name

Hello @mackymacface! My name is Logan Greer, and I am also searching to buy/remark some PROMs/ICs of my own, are you able to message me the info on the group member that helped you remark your PROMs? If not, I would really love to learn all the information that you know about how this process is done, and I also would like to know how cost effective this task is?

 

Best,

Logan

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Two hints on re-marking ICs

a) the ink on most original ICs isn't white, it is a silver tone

 

b) the ink on most old ICs factory marked with the rubber stamp transfer method can be removed without a trace by using an acetone soaked q-tip and gentle rubbing and lots of patience.

 

So once we could re-create the correct ink tone, we could make 100% manufacturer and date code correct IC sets for the Apple-1 clones. Or for the repair of originals which lost some ICs.

 

Alas, the PCB materials and the wave soldering techniques used in the 1970s are lost and can't be recovered.

 

So there won't be 100% perfect counterfeit Apple-1 originals, sorry.

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UncleBernie wrote:a) the ink
UncleBernie wrote:

a) the ink on most original ICs isn't white, it is a silver tone

 

b) the ink on most old ICs factory marked with the rubber stamp transfer method can be removed without a trace by using an acetone soaked q-tip and gentle rubbing and lots of patience.

 

So once we could re-create the correct ink tone, we could make 100% manufacturer and date code correct IC set

 

It's probably good that 100% counterfeits aren't possible, because some schmuck would be out there trying to rip people off.  Actually I'm sure it happens now with less than 100% perfect copies, but it would be more common if it was harder to detect a counterfeit.

 

An example of this in another industry...  A guy I used to know was a Luthier (makes custom guitars).  He used to make painstakingly accurrate copies of mostly vintage Fender guitars.  He was pretty careful about who he made them for so they wouldn't try to cheat people.  Unfortunately, some still get loose.

 

One particular guitar he had made for a guy who later died.  His family, not knowing it was a replica sold it.  Some years later my friend was in an expensive vintage guitar store in Chicago when he sees a guitar that looks familiar...  turns out it was that guitar.  And they had no idea at all it was a fake.  Their experts had all authenticated it as an original vintage Fender.  They'd paid a pretty hefty sum for it when they bought it, and were asking a pretty penny for it.

 

However my friend happened to have pictures as it was being made...  documented the serial number...  And had marked it inside the neck pocket -- something the appraisers had missed.

 

Ooops.  Now, the guitar was still worth a fair amount, but considerably less than what the store had paid for it, and much less than what they were asking.

 

The lesson is, even experts can get fooled sometimes, and that isn't a good thing.  Even when there is no intent to defraud, people can still end up paying a lot of money for a fake.

 

 

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I worked for the company that made the inks for IC printing

... and I can tell you it's likely a formulation using a fine grain iron oxide (for color) with a UV curable base.  Once cured, it would be resistant to an acetone bath.  Not impervious, but highly resistant.

Image transfer used a silicome offset pad that picked up the pattern from an etched gravure plate. (or embossed roller)

If you are trying to replicate the print, you can do it and get it pretty close if you made up your own ink (use your imagination on that) using a clear UV curable base.

The hardest part wound be getting the image transfer correct.  If you can set up a roller that coats an ink stamp precisely, then applies the image accurately to the IC, you could cure it with UV light and have something that's close and durable.

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My thoughts on doing the A1 project I’m doing.

I agree with all this information! For me, my goal is the make the most ultra accurate Apple-1 replica PCB, I don't plan to sell the boards anytime soon. I'm just doing the project for fun, and the boards will be labeled in some way, so people can see the difference.

 

I went back and looked through MANY previous posts taking about the fakes and real boards, comparing the two, and some certain people I reached out to, DID want to share certain details and some didn't, and even some people didn't want to help me with any of it and some went crazy and jumped right in to help me when I announced I was doing this project. So, for me, I OBVIOUSLY know that I personally couldn't afford to buy the original EXACT manufacturing date ICs from 1974, 1975, and 1976 like I wanted to without me having to sell my arm and my leg, that's why I was looking into just buying the correct IC with the correct package and then seeing the cost to remark those ICs to have the correct dates on them. My hopes are that people on Applefritter will be willing to help me with this project because I again know that there will always be risks involved with doing this VERY project. But I'm the person who will always take risks no matter the result because I WIN. So, that's why I see myself being the right man for this task. I also think that when I am done with this PCB I'm gonna REALLY knock everyone's socks off!!

I have gotten a lot of advice about doing this project and I think I have realized that there are a LOT more pros than there are cons. I also believe that anyone can do a task like this, BUT ONLY IF it's in the right hands... That's just my belief. So, as for anyone that is concerned about doing a project like this, just know that you can do it as long as your smart about it.

 

Best,

Logan

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Logan, you have the right attitude ...

Logan, you have the right attitude ... which is a 'can do' attitude.

I wish you much success. Don't let doubters get you down. You can do anything you set your mind to, as long as you persevere.

Here's some artwork to get you started. (in case you don't have it...)

Download links:

A1.png

A2.png

Good luck!

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mrtitanic777 wrote:I agree
mrtitanic777 wrote:

I agree with all this information! For me, my goal is the make the most ultra accurate Apple-1 replica PCB, I don't plan to sell the boards anytime soon. I'm just doing the project for fun, and the boards will be labeled in some way, so people can see the difference.

 

I went back and looked through MANY previous posts taking about the fakes and re

 

I'm glad that you are honest and not trying to flip replica boards as original to make money.  Even better that you will mark them to be identifiable so that nobody in the future is tempted to do so or accidentally believes they are original either.  That's the right thing to do, so good on you.

 

 

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In post #7, softwarejanitor

In post #7, softwarejanitor wrote:

 

"It's probably good that 100% counterfeits aren't possible, because some schmuck would be out there trying to rip people off.  Actually I'm sure it happens now with less than 100% perfect copies, but it would be more common if it was harder to detect a counterfeit. "

 

Uncle Bernie answers:

 

There is a legit market for 100% perfect counterfeits, believe it or not. For instance, many if not most paintings from famous masters of all epochs you can see hanging on the walls of rich men's mansions  are such 100% perfect forgeries. The reason is quite simple: you can't get rich if you don't know how to pinch pennies.  The business case is like this: a) how much is the super sophisticated security system and its maintenance PLUS the usurious insurance fees per year, year after year, if you display the priceless original in your living room, or b) you pay X amount of dollars / euros ONCE for a 100% perfect copy to display it and put the original in a safe, climate controlled storage. There are really excellent "forgers" out there who specialize in duplicating the work of specific masters / artists and no layman (or even expert) could tell from just looking at it. These "forgers" also live in mansions, I used to know one who resided over Lake Geneva like a king. These perfect forgeries are works of art in their own right and they are not exactly cheap. Now, how can the perfect forgery be reveiled ? Put it into a x-ray machine and you can see the "REPLICA BY xxy" in lead paint which the "forger"/artist has put as the first layer on the canvas to keep himself out of jail.

 

As for the Apple-1, it's a bit of an anomaly (IMHO) that originals fetch so much money in auctions. This is unusual for a microcomputer. The psychology of the Apple myth certainly plays a role. There are much rarer microcomputers than the Apple-1 which cost far less, i.e. the Fidelity Chess Challenger One, unmolested, in the original hilarious configuration with the ranks and files swapped. Big embarrassment for its manufacturer ! Much like Apple bought back the Apple-1 (to destroy them), Fidelity offered an update where a new self adhesive foil was glued onto the front panel to get the ranks / files and the keyboard right. Software was updated, too. Only very few Chess Challenger One in their original first incarnation (ranks and files swapped) in working condition are known to exist today. I know of three, worldwide, in collector's hands, two of which yours truly has restored for their owners into functional condition. One is at a collector in the Netherlands, and another one at a collector in Japan. (I was for Fidelity chess computers what Corey is for the Apple-1).

 

I think we all can see where I am heading: with the original Apple-1 being too valuable now and expensive to insure, there may be a market for 100% perfect Apple-1 clones. Owners of originals would commision a "perfect" copy of their Apple-1 original, which would go into a safe vault, and keep the copy around in their mansion (I suppose none of these happy owners would live in a trailer park). For museums having Apple-1 originals the same reason: they could keep the originals in the safety of their storage vaults and display a "perfect" copy to the patrons, maybe even with a live keyboard so people could really get hands-on experience.

 

This said, there is a legit reason for 100% perfect Apple-1 clones. So I do applaud Logan's mission and wish him success with his mission !

 

And I don't think any 100% perfect Apple-1 "forgery" could ever be made. Corey can identify counterfeit Apple-1 from a 6 feet distance. I could probably do it at 2 feet (poor eyesight due to age). And that's just the first impression. Any closer scrutiny using modern forensics like x-rays or analysis of the solder composition or the PCB base material etc. would put an end to the lie quickly.

 

In closing, just to add to that guitar affair you mentioned. This has some reverberations with me as my ex GF from a quarter century ago used to do help heirs of the rich and the famous to unclutter the estate. Lots of nice collectibles like Bauhaus chairs, Galle lamps etc. would be found and auctioned off. She got her cut. But lo and behold ... more often than not these were replicas ... made just a few decades after the originals ! There were not cheap counterfeits, the craftsmanship typically was very good, possibly Italian, a nation renowned for excellent craftsmen if they can evade taxes. You really need to know the topic (and the works of the original artists) to see the clues. These deceased "rich guys" paid a lot of money for these items, which begs the question: did they buy these copies / replicas / counterfeits knowing that they weren't the real deal (cheap bastards / penny pinchers !) or were they defrauded like everybody else ? Who knows. We can't dig them out and ask them. But since then, and all the stories she told me and the little details she showed me on how to detect counterfeits of certain items, I refused to buy any "precious object of art" from any field, the chance to get conned is just too high.

I had my fair share of fraudulent Italian supersportscars. In each and every one I ever had I found oddities or outright fraud like manipulated engine numbers that were made "matching". Well, most owners look the other way and pretend to be happy. I'm a nit-picker and dig into these things. I'm now too old (and live in the wrong country now) to enjoy driving them as they should be driven so all the mine were sold off long ago. I do not want to buy any of these "dreamcars" anymore, they all are a scam, some more, some less, but all are a scam and you don't get your money's worth. Buyer beware !

Everything seems to be a fraud nowadays: the "money", the "insurance", the "food", the "wine", the "collectibles", and don't get me going  on "stonks", "politics", "elections" and "vaccines".  There seems to be no honest soul anywhere in sight. All looks like a con and a swindle. Everything reeks of skim and scam and rip off, is mortgaged, hollowed out, zombiefied, Potemkin's villages. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is no way to sustain the edifice we call "civilisation":  under these dishonest conditions it is doomed.

As far as I can see it, it's all falling apart in the very front of our eyes.

"Fake" Apple-1 should be the least of our concerns. But sure, they are a nice distraction to play with and to kill time while the crew is busy rearranging the deck chairs on the post iceberg "Titanic". Actually, PPO, or "Post Peak Oil". But this would be too far from the topic of this website. As far as I'm concerned my work on the Apple-1 keeps me from brooding on dark thoughts about when I'll keel over (hopefully, for natural reasons) and how many months/years/decades of RQLT may be left in my body's gas tank. It's definitely not half full anymore. And like in all small aircraft, the gauge lies (blood panels sold by quacks).

 

Comments (on Apple-1 clones) invited ! For the other dire topics, send me a private message here on Applefritter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Appreciation!

Hello @macnoyd! I am deeply honored that I have support behind me while doing this project, I think it helps me even further to be upfont and completely honest about such a project because like @softwarejanitor said I obviously don't ever want to confuse a buyer into thinking that my PCBs are REAL PCBs. I am very grateful that you have given me that PROM artwork. As it stands right now, I have just finished completely recreating all the labeling for all the ICs for the Apple-1 in Apple ad #1. Even with an almost EXACT font!!

 

I have attached a photo of the recreation I did for the label of the 2504V from Microsoft Paint. I'm VERY happy that I am making great headway on this project, and this doesn't even scratch the surface of what I've also been doing. I wish that I could have had Corey Cohen's help with this project, but I can see where he comes from because he did obviously inform me that there's millions of dollars on the line for experts to validate replicas VS fakes, BUT, that's ok I guess, at least I understand HIS reasoning for his decision.

 

Lastly, I wish there was a way to raise money for this project, or find people that would be willing to help me with PCB software since a lot of it is going to be involved with this project. So, I guess what I am saying, is that I am looking for people that would be willing to help me and that I would be forever grateful If they did. Haha

 

Best,

Logan

 

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A comment on the example template in post #13:

Great work, Logan, but be aware of the fact that the irregularities of the markings on the ICs come from the rubber transfer printing process itself, and not from the font on the template.

 

I don't want to discourage you, but before you get too enthusiastic and invest too much time into making templates with an irregular font, I'd suggest you set up the transfer printing process and try to make a small prototype run.

 

I have a hunch that the correct font, perfect, no irregularities, would produce an irregular print on the ICs which looks more real that what you would get with your method. And it would be less work as you could use the same perfect font(s) on templates.

 

This effect, BTW, is seen in all printing processes (some more, some less), and the attempt to make printing plates for bank notes by optical means from banknotes themselves is doomed for this very reason. Really good printing plates for counterfeit money must be made with the same engraving process as the real plates are made. There are special engraving machines to make these interesting patterns which are so hard to do by hand. These machines are found in some good technical museums. But without the specialist knowing how to use the specific machine this doesn't help much.

 

Thanks God, FIAT paper money now is so worthless (or already spirals down the toilet towards hyperinflation) that only idiots would try to make counterfeit bank notes at the time being. They would not even make the government minimum wage, I bet. Before they are done with the plates and setting up the process, and making the special paper, their "money" produced will only be good as a fuel for an oven to keep one room in the house warm. In the end phase of the Weimar Republic hyperinflation, paper "money" was printed on  huge machines used for newspapers and on the same cheap, pulp newsprint paper. Then it was cut and bundled into bricks of paper. The wives of workers would go to the factory in the morning to get the daily wage of the husband in form of one or more such paper money bricks and then rush to buy the groceries for the day. Nobody counted the trillions anymore, at some point they weighted the money bricks and later even that was not worth the effort anymore. In the next morning the baker would use the paper money bricks to heat his ovens to bake bread to sell for more paper money bricks. When the government found out that printing this "money" did cost them more than what it was worth, they put and end to the scam and made a monetary reform. Any similiarities with the copper washed zinc penny we nowadays can marvel at are purely coincidential.    

 

 

 

 

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Wonderful response! So, when

Wonderful response! So, when you said irregularities, did you mean when I recreated the number and letter offsets?  

Best,

Logan

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About the irregularities (Logan's above post #15)

... yes, you got what I mean.

 

No IC marking template has any irregularities when new. All very crisp fonts and the manufacturer logo, all perfect.

 

The "irregularities" come from the printing process itself. The viscosity of the ink being one major factor you can control.

Pressures during the transfer / printing process are another major factor.

 

Over long production runs, the transfer rubber will wear out at the edges of the template. This causes the print to become more blurry at the edges over time. When it gets too bad, the rubber is replaced.

 

This is quite a messy process which also requires some skills.

 

But the bottom line is that you may not need to put a lot of time into making irregular fonts and the like.

 

I'd steal the manufacturer logos right out of the databooks of the correct time period and not put much time into editing them by hand either.

 

It's the end result which counts. The visual impression of the casual observer must be just right. Not too perfect, and not too irregular. It's hard to put this into words. But if you put "your" Logan brand ICs into an Apple-1 among genuine ICs, it should not have any odd or noticable features compared to the others.  And if it's too perfect, it will stick out.

 

It's a psychological effect every good forger knows, especially when identity papers or permits are forged. You do not need to try to replicate every little detail of the originals, you just need to produce the same  impression / experience as the originals for the casual Nazi thug who said "Papers, please !". And you are good to go. It's a Jedi mind trick that is being played on the weak of mind: "These are not the droids you are looking for."

 

Did you know that some surplus places used to re-stamp ICs using their own equipment back in the day ?

 

 

 

 

 

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@unclebernie Very useful

@unclebernie Very useful information! I believe that @macnoyd would be the person to instruct me on how to physically do this process with ICs, I don't have this skill with ICs BUT I am MORE than willing to learn and perfect this skill.

 

I also did not know that companies used to re-stamp ICs?? Do tell me more please?!

 

Best,

Logan

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Apple used to do it ...

Apple did it with memory chips by re-branding the chip with the Apple logo. (as example)

EProm IC's were often re-branded with a manufacturer's part number in place of the actual Manufacturer's print.

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