"Refurbished" Apple II badges

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Tom Owad's picture
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"Refurbished" Apple II badges

Has anybody seen one of these "refurbished" badges from MacEffects in person?

What is included in the refurbishment process: An old damaged original badge is melted down (1:1), then stamped into a steel mold, then it is rolled/polished, then it is brushed (where applicable), then dye colorant is added, and lastly 3m adhesive is applied and cut. What you are left with is a badge that is equivalent to a brand new badge.

Seems like a rather extreme way to refurbish something. I wonder if there's anything beyond marketing behind the decision to use original badges.

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I saw that ... Was even

I saw that ... Was even tempted to buy one, but the description was perplexing in that he uses the old badge to make a new badge. (?)

Why wouldn't he use a newer badge and simply re-coat the logo and colors to it  - basically eliminating the green  "Plus" from the design ?

Doesn't sound quite right to me.  That, or he's smply making replicates and wants folks to view them as "original".

Still, the badge would be nice to have if it's a close enough replication.  50 bucks for it narrows the market though IMHO.

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I'm not buying it...

I don't believe their story of "melting" an original part to make a 1:1 "refurbished" badge. Why would someone in India go through all this effort when the final result is indistinguishable from a freshly produced, cheap plastic imitation anyway? And I doubt it would techincally even work this way. It's just a story to justify the price of $99 for a small piece of plastic...

It's logical though that someone in India came up with this idea: when you believe in "reincarnation", you may well believe that these cheap new badges were actually original badges in their former life... It's just a matter of believing.

Anyway, I'm not buying it... ;-)

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Well the seller is in Indiana

Well the seller is in Indiana, not India...but neverless, it's not disclosed where these are being "refurbished" nor by whom. And I agree, it's all a bit bizarre -- just make new badges and sell them as replicas. Reusing the original material isn't going to give them plausible deniability if Apple comes calling about trademark concerns.

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I find this all a bit strange

I find this all a bit strange myself. MacEffects who is selling these is the same person who is currently doing the kickstarter for the Injection Molded Clear Case for Apple IIe and IIgs Part of the kickstarter is that the case comes with a badge which I assume are the same as the ones he is selling on ebay. If these refurbished badges actually use a melted down original badge I can't see how he will source enough to do this. The other question would be why you would need to use an original badge, especially for the Apple II ones which are totally painted so none of the original aluminium? plate is visible.

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I got some of his badges.

I got some of his badges. They are very nice, better quality that the Russian made ones that sold on eBay for a while for $100 each. I don’t believe however, that they are made from original recycled badges but it makes no difference since they are identical to the originals. He also makes badges for II pluses and Bell &Howell “darth vaders”

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Oops...
Dr. Webster wrote:

Well the seller is in Indiana, not India...

Oh, right, oops! :-) I was too quick. Anyway, "reincarnations" are just as unlikely to happen in Indiana as they are in India. Maybe even less likely... ;-)

May well be true that the guy is making good quality badges. But I don't like the way he is marketing them as "refurbished".

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Dr. Webster wrote:Reusing the
Dr. Webster wrote:

Reusing the original material isn't going to give them plausible deniability if Apple comes calling about trademark concerns.

Perhaps it isn't an Apple lawsuit, but eBay removing the listings, that they're afraid of.

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Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!

But, maybe a new computer...

Apple II Plus, Rev 7 RFI Motherboard (reactivemicro.com)

Universal PSU Kit (wiki.reactivemicro.com)

Unified ASCII Keyboard (github.com)

Injection Molded Clear Case - The Apple II & II Plus Case Stretch Goal (kickstarter.com)

and, genuine fake badges! (wikipedia.org)

 :)

 

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Tom Owad wrote:Dr. Webster
Tom Owad wrote:
Dr. Webster wrote:

Reusing the original material isn't going to give them plausible deniability if Apple comes calling about trademark concerns.

Perhaps it isn't an Apple lawsuit, but eBay removing the listings, that they're afraid of.

 

Highly likey.  eBay will often pull an ad or even ban someone for selling counterfeit products, which is what this is.

 

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They are brand new. Word

They are brand new. Word Refurbished eliminates copyright...

 

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He's not being honest.

Melting down aluminum is not an easy thing to do.  It has to be done in a oxygen-free environment if it's done in small baches as it oxidize quickly.  Even if he was melting down thousands of badges at a time, he'd need an oxygen free environment to achieve his claimed 1:1 ratio.  It is all heaps of BS.  And the price is a rip-off.  Maybe I'll buy one of each and send them off to a friend of mine in China and get them replicated for pennies.

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drakepirate wrote:They are
drakepirate wrote:

They are brand new. Word Refurbished eliminates copyright...

 Not at all legally, those badges are still a clear violation of Copyright and Trademark laws.  But it may allow him to skirt the eBay rules.  He's small time enough that it is unlikely Apple will notice or consider it worth worrying about.

 

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BillO wrote:Melting down
BillO wrote:

Melting down aluminum is not an easy thing to do.  It has to be done in a oxygen-free environment if it's done in small baches as it oxidize quickly.  Even if he was melting down thousands of badges at a time, he'd need an oxygen free environment to achieve his claimed 1:1 ratio.  It is all heaps of BS.  And the price is a rip-off.  Maybe I'll buy one of each and send them off to a friend of mine in China and get them replicated for pennies.

 

He's probably having them made in China.  But if you are going to get copies made I'd want to send originals to avoid loss of fidelity copying a copy.  But yeah, if you are making more than a few, it is hard to beat having them made over there.  The place where it might be an issue is in getting them imported.  You might have trouble with Customs since they are clearly in violation of Copyright and Trademark laws.  Even back in the 1980s they started cracking down on counterfeit product like this.

 You are absolutely correct about melting aluminum though, it oxidizes very quickly.  Even when you are melting a fair quantity at a time it is a challenge to keep ahead of that.

 

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I would like to take a moment

I would like to take a moment to clarify things as it appears that most posts on here contain incorrect information.  These badges were refurbished in China and do comply with trademark restrictions.  Pursuant to the findings of Nitro Leisure Products, LLC v. Acushnet Company, decided August 26, 2003; a firm is lawfully allowed to use a registered trademark that was originally found on the item.  In the cited case it was golf balls that had paint removed and the original trademark reapplied after refurbishment.  Only properly disclosure that it is a refurbished unit and what the refurbishment process includes.  You will, of course, note that the listing is in full compliance.  These badges were refurbished as part of a Kickstarter for a clear case Apple II / II Plus and the remaining badges are being offered for sale.  Many others in the community have requested that other badges be created.  As such 15 steel stamping molds were created to facilitate the refurbishment process.  $6,000 in tooling was spent, plus setup costs, tariffs, and additional variable costs.  The reason why each badge type is difference is because demand for each one is varied.  It is unlikely that 100 badges (the MOQ) will sell for the Apple II as such it is higher than other ones such as the II Plus.  I wanted to apologize if anyone thought some malicious intent was here, as no such intent exists.  This is in contrast to others on eBay who do make new badges and sell them without disclosing that they are not original or refurbished and charge more than these badges.  Each badge type was created based on requests from the community.  As many of you may know, these original badges have become worn, faded, and otherwise damaged with age.I hope this helps everyone better understand the situation.  If you have questions about these badges, please let me know as I am happy to answer any questions. 

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OK. We get it ;-)

Keep up the good work Mark.

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Sorry still unclear

Sorry still unclear - are you melting original badges down or not?

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I would think that it is for

I would think that it is for legal reasons. Because the original material was an Apple logo plate, he isn't actualy manufacturing new plates, so he isn't technically producing illegal copies that violate trademarks and design copyrights. 

 

I haen't seen any in person, but I have considered ordering some as samples just for the sake of having them.

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lpp71, thanks for the very

lpp71, thanks for the very interesting explanation of trademark law with regards to refurbishing.

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I'm not a lawyer, but I'm

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that this would not hold up in a court of law.

Create a business tearing down the product of your choice and use as many of the raw materials as possible to manufacture a new one and stamp the original manufacturers trademark on it and see what happens.

Though many replacement car parts are remanufactured from OEM cores, those parts are not advertised as the OEM part.

I've seen a few youtube videos of shoe repair people restoring expensive dress shoes. I distinctly remember that one cobbler had had an issue with a certain manufacturer as he was restoring the original logo onto the shoes he restored and the manufacturer objected.

Copyright, trademark and patent laws are geared to protect big business and there aren't many loopholes.

regards,
Mike Willegal

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I have to agree with Mike

I have to agree with Mike Willegal, I think if Apple ever sued it wouldn't go well for anyone selling these. The saving thing is probably that it isn't a big enough thing for Apple to notice.

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Just get originals

Or you could just buy some originals...
http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/case-internal-parts-apple-ii/apple-iie-emblem-or-badge/

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mutant_pie wrote: Or you
mutant_pie wrote: Or you could just buy some originals... http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/case-internal-parts-apple-ii/apple-iie-emblem-or-badge/

Aye, but that is only useful when they have the bage that you need. I will likely eventually order some of the repops to see how they compare.

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I prefer to base possible

I prefer to base possible legal ramifications on the doctrine of stare decisis rather than conjecture.  However, I will say that it is within the scope of Apple's rights to send a cease and desist letter requesting the removal of these badges.  Under such a situation, a dialog explaining the situation and citation of precedent would be presented to their legal time.  Should this fail, the tooling will be sold to be reused/repurposed, though this would only recover 1/3 of initial tooling cost.  The risk associated with this occurring is already baked into the price.  The purpose of these badges is to best serve the vintage Apple community.  

 

I will say that many places sell refurbished products that removed original trademark and it was later reapplied.  I would suggest looking at auto emblems this is very common, especially for vintage vehicles.  Just because a big company chooses to request something and has the legal team to "encourage" the little guy to do something doesn't mean it would hold up in court.

 

Trademark rules have been carefully studied to prevent issues.  Which is why the nearly $200,000 in tooling for various cases for Apple products don’t feature a trademark or even the recessed area for a trademark.

 

If new things aren’t created and old products aren’t refurbished, I’m afraid this hobby will slowly die.  Older machines like the Apple II will be the first one to lose out simply because of aging baby-boomers.  My personal goal is to breathe new life into an old hobby.  Though, I respect everyones opinions. 

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